Dialing out the understeer

[kiks]

hmm a boxer engine in the boot, now that would be something...

A 911!!

Well im glad someone understood my joke

I have a 996 911 in the driveway. I would bet a stock standard 3rb would destroy it on any windy road. And my 3.0rb would embarrass most non gt3rs porkas. They are the most vague heap of shit I have ever driven (996 that is)

[seanmau5]

hmm a boxer engine in the boot, now that would be something...

A 911!!

Well im glad someone understood my joke

I'll take a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 thanks my favourite European car builder! I'd also love a '64 911 Carerra

[XT_for_me]

Understeer is caused by load on the outside front which is disproportionate to the load on the outside rear. I am not talking about turn in here but the understeer experienced in a steady cornering maneuver such as driving in a circle. There are several things which will help. A larger rear anti sway bar is the first. It will transfer more of the cornering induced weight transfer to the rear, and hence unload the outside front. The Whiteline Anti Lift Kit is another device to help with this, by reducing the wheel lift effect on the inside front. Also consider the Whiteline Roll Center adjustment kit.
Increasing the castor on the front will help significantly but this is usually only possible with coilovers.

Next would be to increase the rear spring rates.

To improve the turn in feel increased camber makes a big difference BUT can have a major effect on front tyre wear.

[coyote]

Understeer is caused by load on the outside front which is disproportionate to the load on the outside rear. I am not talking about turn in here but the understeer experienced in a steady cornering maneuver such as driving in a circle. There are several things which will help. A larger rear anti sway bar is the first. It will transfer more of the cornering induced weight transfer to the rear, and hence unload the outside front. The Whiteline Anti Lift Kit is another device to help with this, by reducing the wheel lift effect on the inside front. Also consider the Whiteline Roll Center adjustment kit.
Increasing the castor on the front will help significantly but this is usually only possible with coilovers.

Next would be to increase the rear spring rates.

To improve the turn in feel increased camber makes a big difference BUT can have a major effect on front tyre wear.

I'm sorry, but this is almost completely wrong.

[Doc]

Soooooo, .....

not sure now how much or if you're taking the mickey?

I can see IF I wanted to turn the thing into a track beast, I "might" do at least some of that, but let's just go with what you've said for now.

A proper 'steer' tyre on the front. Federal 595rsr is the best value for money. I'm trying AD050 yoko's next.

Handy info. Thanks

Up the rear spring rate to about 6kg with stock fronts and remove the front sway bar completely.

Up it "TO" 6Kg or "BY" 6Kg. Not sure I follow that.

Make new strut tops and aim for about 8 deg of castor. Using the factory bearings in a sandwiched heim joint would do fine. Ghetto pillowballs.

Yeah.... Unlikely

1.5 to 2deg neg camber in the front. 1 on the rear is heaps.

Is kinda sorta the info I was originally expecting

3mm toe out on all corners.

Prolly a wee bit too much on a street car. But interesting that you say to go toe-out on the rear, rather than having minimal toe-in rear.

Replace every bush in the car with alloy or urethane.
Solid mount the rear subframe, diff, gearbox supports.
Once you start making power replace all 3 diffs. Once done you can add a front swaybar again. Until then it only serves to tripod the car keeping wheels off the ground.

Yeah.... Unlikely.... Bushes maybe. One day, maybe.

Zero toe in the rear will stop the tram lining a little. Front toe out is needed. At least a mm.

Ok, a reasonable statement.

Stock geometry is amazing at stock height. Stiffer rear also introduces some anti squat which helps corner exit front end grip a huge amount due to the stock dynamic toe.

Hmmmm.. Obvious research required. Thanks.

Stock bilsteins are not valved hard enough as is.... Look at a proper set of shocks. Ohlins, dms etc.

A bit later maybe. Start with playing with geo first.

[Doc]

And remember with no understeer there is no grip. It's a fundamental requirement of physics to exist.

errrrr.... Excuse me? With understeer, there is no grip.

Unless we have different understandings of the word understeer?

[XT_for_me]

Understeer is caused by load on the outside front which is disproportionate to the load on the outside rear. I am not talking about turn in here but the understeer experienced in a steady cornering maneuver such as driving in a circle. There are several things which will help. A larger rear anti sway bar is the first. It will transfer more of the cornering induced weight transfer to the rear, and hence unload the outside front. The Whiteline Anti Lift Kit is another device to help with this, by reducing the wheel lift effect on the inside front. Also consider the Whiteline Roll Center adjustment kit.
Increasing the castor on the front will help significantly but this is usually only possible with coilovers.

Next would be to increase the rear spring rates.

To improve the turn in feel increased camber makes a big difference BUT can have a major effect on front tyre wear.

I'm sorry, but this is almost completely wrong.

Please enlighten us with your knowledge, or I will consider this just a troll

[Kekotic]

Calling Coyote a troll?

Get yer pitchforks here, 2 for one offer.

[Smithyy]

I feel as if this thread is about to get interesting haha

[iisshhyy]

haha I'm lookin forward to this ....... beer, check. pop corn, check. Ready

[kiks]

Soooooo, .....

not sure now how much or if you're taking the mickey?
Dead serious...hell this is exactly how my daily driven liberty is.
I can see IF I wanted to turn the thing into a track beast, I "might" do at least some of that, but let's just go with what you've said for now.

A proper 'steer' tyre on the front. Federal 595rsr is the best value for money. I'm trying AD050 yoko's next.

Handy info. Thanks

Up the rear spring rate to about 6kg with stock fronts and remove the front sway bar completely.

Up it "TO" 6Kg or "BY" 6Kg. Not sure I follow that.
It says 'to' quite clearly. the factory rear is way undersprung. If you go up in the front rates, go up in the rear even more. 25.4% stiffer is perfect considering stock track widths on a gen 4 wagon. Im sure the sedan is slightly more considering it has a few mm extra track

Make new strut tops and aim for about 8 deg of castor. Using the factory bearings in a sandwiched heim joint would do fine. Ghetto pillowballs.

Yeah.... Unlikely

Dont see why not? It isnt much work. Took me about 3 hours to make 6 sets of strut tops with varying camber and castor. You could do it with some alloy plate, a ruler, angle grinder, pencil and a single hole saw and drill bit.

1.5 to 2deg neg camber in the front. 1 on the rear is heaps.

Is kinda sorta the info I was originally expecting
When done its nice. Lower than stock height I'd reduce the rear camber from that amount. The rear end in BE/BL/GR subarus are just astoundingly competent
3mm toe out on all corners.

Prolly a wee bit too much on a street car. But interesting that you say to go toe-out on the rear, rather than having minimal toe-in rear.
Toe out on the rear is a function of the fact that you are prior to this upping the rear spring rate reducing some squat. It really helps the front end become the only thing on your mind. In my experience the rear toe out makes the car FAR more neutral on out corner, with no difference at all on corner entry. The rear end actually following the front is completely progressive as long as throttle inputs are smooth. Toe out on a playstation driver is no good and results in wild tank slappers and completely unpredictable handling considering the huge effect toe has compared to axle loading. Toe out to bring the back end around under squat (ie, acceleration) is the main removal of out corner understeer. The difference is astounding. 3mm is extreme, hence the warning on tyre life. 1.2-1.5mm would be fine but if you're not loading the tyres up its just a waste. You need tyres that you can lean on to get the advantages here obviously If you aren't unloading the inside wheels then it only serves to create heat and scrub rubber. There is not much you can do without drastically modifying the control arms to toe out under bound which is giving me awesome ideas

Replace every bush in the car with alloy or urethane.
Solid mount the rear subframe, diff, gearbox supports.
Once you start making power replace all 3 diffs. Once done you can add a front swaybar again. Until then it only serves to tripod the car keeping wheels off the ground.

Yeah.... Unlikely.... Bushes maybe. One day, maybe.
The critical few bushes I would replace: both inners on front control arms. The lateral link bushes in the rear arms.
Zero toe in the rear will stop the tram lining a little. Front toe out is needed. At least a mm.

Ok, a reasonable statement.
As above, the toe out on the rear can make the car lively as the wheels unload to eachother on undulating roads. On the front this isnt so bad as you have a steering wheel :p Hence good shocks and springs to control the wheels.

Stock geometry is amazing at stock height. Stiffer rear also introduces some anti squat which helps corner exit front end grip a huge amount due to the stock dynamic toe.

Hmmmm.. Obvious research required. Thanks.
Next time your car is getting aligned...sit in it and then step out and watch the toe changes. You'll shit bricks :p
Stock bilsteins are not valved hard enough as is.... Look at a proper set of shocks. Ohlins, dms etc.

A bit later maybe. Start with playing with geo first.

[kiks]

Understeer is caused by load on the outside front which is disproportionate to the load on the outside rear.

Wow this is wrong. What does 'load' have anything to do with it. I guarantee not one vehicle in the entire world loads both front and rear tyres proportionally 50% in any condition, ever.

I am not talking about turn in here but the understeer experienced in a steady cornering maneuver such as driving in a circle.

So you are saying that you want to fix neutral rake understeer? This is not a commodore forum. There is never a point in a subarus life that it is neutrally cornering. You are braking or accelerating. There is no neutral rolling around a corner, if you are, you are slow. Fix being slow before fixing non existent problems. The fact the front end will lose grip before the rear end is nearly a guaranteed design feature in every single passenger vehicle on the planet just about, and should remain that way. A front tyre is doing probably about 20% more work than a rear tyre in this condition you describe. This condition also never really exists unless you're driving a live axle. Because a front tyre works so much harder than a rear tyre, it will inherently fail first. To change this is not increasing rear end grip, it is decreasing front end grip. I said quite clearly, that without understeer, there is no cornering.

There are several things which will help.

Stop reading here is the first bit of help I can suggest to anyone

A larger rear anti sway bar is the first. It will transfer more of the cornering induced weight transfer to the rear, and hence unload the outside front.

Im going to need you to put this into a diagram for me, as this makes absolutely no sense what so ever to anyone who has ever driven a car

The Whiteline Anti Lift Kit is another device to help with this, by reducing the wheel lift effect on the inside front.

It doesnt reduce shit. It increases castor, scrub radius, and reduces the effective spring rate due to the increase in control arm moment. It has nothing to do with wheel lift (whatever loose term that is you are describing), and the anti squat characteristics are negligable. Tyre pressure is an easier way to achieve that one side benefit.

Also consider the Whiteline Roll Center adjustment kit.

There is nothing wrong with the front roll centre on a stock height gen4 liberty. Why would you want to increase bump steer? On a lowered liberty, sure...which is a completely different issue.

Increasing the castor on the front will help significantly but this is usually only possible with coilovers.

At which point in a corner will increased castor help reduce understeer? Because it wont in the scenario you described above. On corner entry...shit yes. Corner exit? hell no.

Next would be to increase the rear spring rates.

This should be absolutely first before anything else

To improve the turn in feel increased camber makes a big difference BUT can have a major effect on front tyre wear.

turn in feel??? who cares about feel. We want to increase point to point speed. If it feels shit, thats a characteristic you're going to have to embrace. Want it to 'feel' nice, add 3mm of toe out and 50psi in the tyres with a 20mm wheel spacer on each front wheel. I guarantee you will 'feel' every single stone and rock and know exery single treadblock in your tyre....But it isnt fast. Increasing front camber serves a good purpose until such point as it begins to cost out corner grip. Tyre wear is non existent for anyone who contemplates going around a corner fast

[kiks]

And remember with no understeer there is no grip. It's a fundamental requirement of physics to exist.

errrrr.... Excuse me? With understeer, there is no grip.

Unless we have different understandings of the word understeer?

If you aren't understeering, you are not going quick. Is a function of turning a corner that there must be some level of understeer. At any point a steer tyre outgrips a drive tyre, the drive tyre is overpowered (driver fault), or the steer tyre is connected to something designed way wrong. (propeller heads fault). In the case of a 4wd car? The front is being asked to do both jobs...what do you think is going to happen :p

There is no fast oversteering. Inherent tendency to understeer is a sign that the tyres are being given the opportunity to do their job. You may not reach the point where underrsteer becomes a loss of actual grip, but it still exists below the limits of friction.

The plough subaru scrub off into the curb style understeer is different between models and years and drivetrains. Some can be reduced easily, lucky a gen3/4 is as simple as removing a front sway bar and increasing rear wheel spring rate.

As for the quote above, to turn creates friction, the limits of that friction is understeer. Newtons first law of motion. Without understeer...even below the limits of adhesion, you are not turning

[Doc]

And remember with no understeer there is no grip. It's a fundamental requirement of physics to exist.

errrrr.... Excuse me? With understeer, there is no grip.

Unless we have different understandings of the word understeer?

If you aren't understeering, you are not going quick. Is a function of turning a corner that there must be some level of understeer. At any point a steer tyre outgrips a drive tyre, the drive tyre is overpowered (driver fault), or the steer tyre is connected to something designed way wrong. (propeller heads fault). In the case of a 4wd car? The front is being asked to do both jobs...

There is no fast oversteering. Inherent tendency to understeer is a sign that the tyres are being given the opportunity to do their job. You may not reach the point where underrsteer becomes a loss of actual grip, but it still exists below the limits of friction.

......

As for the quote above, to turn creates friction, the limits of that friction is understeer. Newtons first law of motion. Without understeer...even below the limits of adhesion, you are not turning

If I understand you correctly, you are (more or less) simply talking about slip angle, only taken down to it's utmost base form. I accept that in some form or other, any tyre (but especially the fronts), on a turning vehicle, is "understeering" even if only by minute amounts due the inherent nature of the rubber form to want to maintain its 'straight rigid shape'.

I also agree that in a speed situation/environment, a certain amount of understeer (albeit again only slight) translates into speed/pace.

And this is all good debate (not to mention for me interesting to learn about the characteristics and possibilities of & with the Subaru), however my original post was more about the fact that I am geting some pretty big understeer even in slower corners at slower speeds. And this even with leaving the Subaru traction control program (whatever it's called) engaged. (Is there a way to reverse that by the way? i.e. Off by default and hit the switch to turn on.)

What I was trying to do was gather the information to make minor modifications, preferably initially only to geo, to try and find a better balance on the std setup. I can spend money on shocks and bushes a bit later, but this is my daily driver under warranty. I don't want to piss with it too much.... just yet. I already have another "passion" vehicle which doesn't get the TLC it demands.


I used to have the original '96 Impreza GT (before the WRX moniker) and whilst it did understeer somewhat, I remember it being way more surefooted than the present '08 Liberty feels.

[Gambit]

Hey only till recently my 08 lib wagon suffered from terrible understeer. Recently had a set of coilovers installed plus a few other bits and had it dialed in at trutrack by way of corner balancing and alignment and it's transformed the car. If you don't have the budget I sugguest you go into the shop for a basic alignment and have a good chat to owner who has been there many years to find the best solution according to your requirements and budget. Unfortunately there is only so much info and knowledge that can be gleaned off here. The rest depends on how you drive the car and your preferences. A lot of it vehcile dynamics comes down to how you drive the car. If your the type that's gun ho and goes whipping into a corner and brakes really late attempting to steer through it, then best to assess that part