MY04 Liberty GT - FrankenStien - EOI welcome / FS

[HardwareBoB]

To put it in perspective at 28.5psi at 3700rpm I'm flowing 400g/second of airflow, which quickly rises to. Peak of 640+g/s after 5000rpm.

In 3rd, I am reaching 7 psi by 2800, 14psi by 3300rpm. Whilst that might seem laggy, at 7psi I'm still flowing over 200g/second.

That is a hell of a lot of air - it should be properly mental to drive now.

[bigBADbenny]

There's a thread on nasioc iirc where inlet avcs was optimised by doing successive dyno runs with inlet advance at progressively fixed points. The resulting graphs were overlayed resulting in optimised power/timing across the whole range.

Could the process be the same on a dual avcs engine, and if so would inlet be optimised first, then exhaust?

I'll dig up a link...

Or is the relationship more dynamic?

Link to Micks e85/eflex avcs thread:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=23295

Matt I hear what but if that's the case I'm puzzled why then was mine spooling at 4200 even with the 0.63 housing? I know the cam timing being out wouldn't help but surely compensating for this with avcs tuning would've helped when you were tuning it?

Its been on the dyno four or five times now since engine was in, and still wasnt right.

So whilst the static cam timing is out by 6 and 8 degrees, this should mean the cam timing you used would only have been 12 to 16 degrees different at most (allowing 6 and 8 degrees of advance/ retard either way). In other words I should only have had to adjust your cam timing tables by 12 or 16 degrees to get it optimized.

This isn't the case as its more or less than that in some regions.

Not having a dig but trying to understand whether I've missed something or maybe you did?

Anyway - GB I've updated the avcs tuning thread too. To me and this may sound arrogant but I'm still yet to see a fully optimized DUAL avcs table for a Subaru. Some tuners have the single avcs down pat (Matt, Scott and msr being some of them) but haven't seen the duals done right

[dr20t]

To put it in perspective at 28.5psi at 3700rpm I'm flowing 400g/second of airflow, which quickly rises to. Peak of 640+g/s after 5000rpm.

In 3rd, I am reaching 7 psi by 2800, 14psi by 3300rpm. Whilst that might seem laggy, at 7psi I'm still flowing over 200g/second.

That is a hell of a lot of air - it should be properly mental to drive now.

Just checked the logs and I lied

In 3rd at 7psi it was flowing 150g/s and 210g/s with 14psi


Benny - yes that's one way to do it but each avcs change results in different VE which needs timing and fuel adjusted accordingly

[KiDo_Tuning]

Matt I hear what but if that's the case I'm puzzled why then was mine spooling at 4200 even with the 0.63 housing? I know the cam timing being out wouldn't help but surely compensating for this with avcs tuning would've helped when you were tuning it?

Its been on the dyno four or five times now since engine was in, and still wasnt right.

So whilst the static cam timing is out by 6 and 8 degrees, this should mean the cam timing you used would only have been 12 to 16 degrees different at most (allowing 6 and 8 degrees of advance/ retard either way). In other words I should only have had to adjust your cam timing tables by 12 or 16 degrees to get it optimized.

This isn't the case as its more or less than that in some regions.

Not having a dig but trying to understand whether I've missed something or maybe you did?

Anyway - GB I've updated the avcs tuning thread too. To me and this may sound arrogant but I'm still yet to see a fully optimized DUAL avcs table for a Subaru. Some tuners have the single avcs down pat (Matt, Scott and msr being some of them) but haven't seen the duals done right

It was the excessive overlap down low killing it though, which is why at Insight we had such a tremendous lack of torque. 2.5, 5 and 10 either side lost torque every time(which brought up the stock catback exhaust) and it was assumed it was the auto box robbing torque to drive the higher pressure hence the chosen values. Explains why the VE table was so far out as well to what I would normally see. No doubt you have seen the changes in VE rising

Doing a Deshelle built Dual AVCS engine right now, have 22psi in an MY12 STi at 2500rpm with Kelford 272's and a Blouch 2.5 Flat torque from 2800rpm to 6000rpm only limited by the turbo and injectors

[dr20t]

Matt what do you mean that excessive overlap was killing torque down low? Was this on insight tune before I decatted?

Good result with the dual avcs 2.5. Sounds like fun.

[dr20t]

Matt - would really like to understand what you meant by the above comment. I've been scratching my head trying to understand it actually, as I don't recall this happening but perhaps its important to what I'm trying to achieve here.

[roh008]

Mick - Loving this build. Do you set up your SI Maps for Daily and Track? To make this amount of Torque and POwer more street friendly?

Roh

P.S. I have inboxed you but I don't think a newbie can send PMs as it's just sitting in my outbox.

[HardwareBoB]

Mick - Loving this build. Do you set up your SI Maps for Daily and Track? To make this amount of Torque and POwer more street friendly?

Roh

P.S. I have inboxed you but I don't think a newbie can send PMs as it's just sitting in my outbox.

No SI drive on pre facelift GTs, PMs sit in your outbox until read (and are editable until they go)

[Boostaddict]

Mick

Thank fuck you are finally figuring this all out. Your car is truly mental and needs to be producing the numbers at the track that it deserves.


Also when you go down to the runs ill come too and see
what my boat can do with 340 rear wheel killswasps.

[blacktop™]

Also when you go down to the runs ill come too and see
what my boat can do with 340 rear wheel killswasps.

have you asked your wife for permission?

[Boostaddict]

Also when you go down to the runs ill come too and see
what my boat can do with 340 rear wheel killswasps.

have you asked your wife for permission?

Hahaha NOPE..... not this time anyway!!! Hahaha Learnt from the last time i mentioned it.

[dr20t]

Thanks Dan. Will let you know when I'm out there next

So Matt since you haven't responded to the above question, i will explain why I was so confused by your post.

Firstly - the standard cat back on this vehicle was removed in August 2011. So don't know what you meant by standard cat back holding power and torque back on insight dyno. If you're referring to the fact that the cat wa present, I've since refitted it and made no difference to torque, in fact given the increased backpressure just off idle its helped spool a tiny bit.

Secondly - you refer to excessive overlap causing spool and torque to suffer down low. This is crap because I'm running 98 degrees of combined intake advance and exhaust retard. Yes you read correctly that's 98 degrees. So add the static overlap of 30-35 degrees and that's over 130 degrees of overlap. And I'm making A LOT more torque now down low. So much so that it feels like a 2.5 now vs a 2.0 litre previously down low. Which makes me question your logic when it comes to the avcs setup.

I don't really think you got to a point where my dual avcs was setup correctly at all. You only told me the last time at autosport that you couldn't figure it out, after the 5th or 6th dyno session, and that's fine, cos we are only human and you're not expected to know everything. But you should've told me alot earlier in the piece mate.

Long and short - its great that the other dual avcs setups are now being mastered but such a shame mine couldn't have been done alot earlier. It would've saved me a hell of alot of time but I guess I wouldn't have learnt as much as I have.

Mick

[KiDo_Tuning]

Thanks Dan. Will let you know when I'm out there next

So Matt since you haven't responded to the above question, i will explain why I was so confused by your post.

Firstly - the standard cat back on this vehicle was removed in August 2011. So don't know what you meant by standard cat back holding power and torque back on insight dyno. If you're referring to the fact that the cat wa present, I've since refitted it and made no difference to torque, in fact given the increased backpressure just off idle its helped spool a tiny bit.

Secondly - you refer to excessive overlap causing spool and torque to suffer down low. This is crap because I'm running 98 degrees of combined intake advance and exhaust retard. Yes you read correctly that's 98 degrees. So add the static overlap of 30-35 degrees and that's over 130 degrees of overlap. And I'm making A LOT more torque now down low. So much so that it feels like a 2.5 now vs a 2.0 litre previously down low. Which makes me question your logic when it comes to the avcs setup.

I don't really think you got to a point where my dual avcs was setup correctly at all. You only told me the last time at autosport that you couldn't figure it out, after the 5th or 6th dyno session, and that's fine, cos we are only human and you're not expected to know everything. But you should've told me alot earlier in the piece mate.

Long and short - its great that the other dual avcs setups are now being mastered but such a shame mine couldn't have been done alot earlier. It would've saved me a hell of alot of time but I guess I wouldn't have learnt as much as I have.

Mick

I have been away obviously. I meant the restrictive catback exhaust that was on the car before we went to Performance Exhaust and saw Hakan

Stock cams are zero overlap at 0IN:20EX hence why the stock factory tune has 20 degrees in the bottom left corner as a static value so max overlap is Max IN + max Ex retard - 20(aka 82 by my numbers) Look at the attachment, this was testing every conceivable combination of AVCS and considering the extra overlap in the 'Current' tunes we did in early August Vs the end result in the Insight tunes and obviously the cam gear being out killed VE. I was maximising VE for the best torque and spool obviously. If a cam gear was out on a non-AVCS engine, would the engine torque suffer? Remember a conversation about AVCS Duty tables? Lag in the cam gears achieving target? That is what always confused me on low rpm torque. By the time you had high rpm, the cams managed to stabilise to make top end power as they have closed loop control.

Correct me if I am wrong but Insight once, Autosport twice is 3 sessions?

[dr20t]

Matt please don't let this descend into one of these tit for tat arguments

And please remove your avcs tables it doesn't achieve anything other than disrepecting your IP - I'm not going to compare tables.

Long and short is it wasnt making power below 4000rpm mate. We had two sessions at insight, 2 at autosport and a couple of road sessions. Surely it would've been enough to figure it out.

And Hakan only decatted that's all he did. That was after the first dyno session in july 2013.

Maybe you can look at why that was happening. Yes exhaust cam being retarded will cause sluggish response down low, but you could've tuned around this with the highly adjustable exhaust avcs I have. Infact the way I've done it now gets the best of both worlds. Compressor surge in 4th at 3700rpm tells you something. And you're wrong about the overlap.

Interesting also that I've seen and heard you suggest a retarded static exhaust cam setup on this and other forums before- which tells me you actually saw value in the retarded exhaust am I wrong? And if so that means you can optimise the tune for the retafddf exhaust.

Anyway I do appreciate all the stuff we've discussed and learnt over the years. You just shit me with your above comment when you trivialized the fact that it was so easy to make power down low now when I was sweating on this same issue for a while.

As I've always said, you do know alot, but I don't think you ever really optimised my dual avcs setup.

Mick

[jakey]

retafddf

yep.