3.0L H6 on E85 = WINNING

[alexeiwoody]

Cold, Hot, 85, 98 - all the same. If you don't prime it first, it'll just crank over for ages.

Interesting. Why is your's doing that, but ours aren't?

I can post up a vid of mine prime/no prime/hot/cold. Mine isn't double o-ringed either.

2.5 vs 3.0 fuel system differences? Why would they have a totally different design esp for something like a no drain valve.... Or different batch of dw65c, even though bought in the same 6 months

[Out6ack]

Yeah, I wish I knew mate.
The pumps aren't model specific, and it can't be the system -the stock pump didn't need to be primed. It isnt something that's developed gradually -its been like it since install.
Still, no big deal really. As long as it always keeps fuel up to the engine that's all I really care about!

[KiDo_Tuning]

That's bizzare. Has the dw65 been updated in the last year (got a link? Google says no...)?

On 98 the dw65 was actually supplying more fuel than stock on startup - the thing would start with half a crank.

Never had any issues losing pressure after power off. Priming the pump or not, the cranking still takes the same amount of clicks everytime. If car is warm on e85 - starts as stock on 98.

The Million Dollar Question: Are these issues only during coldstarts or do you need extra turn overs for ignition even after the car is warm (ie operating temp - turn off/turn back on?)

Adam@JEM has been retuning a few E85 cars, even he asked me about the issue(in conjunction with digging out hot restart tables)

Considering the number of people with new pumps, testing the theory with priming the system before ignition, I would say google does not know everything. I didnt realise DW had to post up pump revisions... although the current reliablility of the DW pumps after their bad batch last year, it may be that removing the anti drain back valve was the solution(which other manufacturers like the Bosch 044 removed, hence why there is a Bosch specific anti drain back valve etc)

[alexeiwoody]

That's bizzare. Has the dw65 been updated in the last year (got a link? Google says no...)?

On 98 the dw65 was actually supplying more fuel than stock on startup - the thing would start with half a crank.

Never had any issues losing pressure after power off. Priming the pump or not, the cranking still takes the same amount of clicks everytime. If car is warm on e85 - starts as stock on 98.

The Million Dollar Question: Are these issues only during coldstarts or do you need extra turn overs for ignition even after the car is warm (ie operating temp - turn off/turn back on?)

Adam@JEM has been retuning a few E85 cars, even he asked me about the issue(in conjunction with digging out hot restart tables)

Considering the number of people with new pumps, testing the theory with priming the system before ignition, I would say google does not know everything. I didnt realise DW had to post up pump revisions... although the current reliablility of the DW pumps after their bad batch last year, it may be that removing the anti drain back valve was the solution(which other manufacturers like the Bosch 044 removed, hence why there is a Bosch specific anti drain back valve etc)

Take it easy there Matt! Implying that someone uses Google for all their info, because they mentioned the "G" word, isn't very nice Anyway, you're ignoring the fact that the three GT owners that just posted here don't seem to be having/have had any pressure issues with the dw65 starts.

All the DW mumbo-jumbo aside, something's fishy.

Fact: Ethanol is harder to start up cold. Unrelated to fuel pressure.

Question: Why are the H6 boys saying that their cold starts are the same as their warm starts between 98/e85.

There's no way they would be, simply because ethanol will require an extra turn over regardless of fuel pressure/amount of injector pulsewidth.

As J pointed out....there's a possibility someone's dw65 isn't installed right...

[AJ_3RB]

Matt, you're a star! Thanks very much for posting a solution and for clarifying DW65c drain back issue. I was kinda hoping for a solution less than $161 dollars... but, I'm stoked regardless. Champion!

In terms of my own DW65c experience, as similar to Jay's comments, prime before start = almost instant start on E85, P100, 98, hot, cold, or tepid. Forget to prime and it's a rarararara-ing pain in the ass.

My lesson from all this is: don't mod tomorrow, what you can mod today.
(Because, if I'd been an early adopter, I'd have a DW65c with no drain back issue)

[alexeiwoody]

Just got an email from Deatschwerks:

"Hey Alex,



Thank you for contacting us. All of our pumps have valves in them that maintain fuel pressure while they’re off. If someone is having issues with their fuel system not maintaining pressure it is almost always due to a torn/dislodged oring on the outlet of the pump or an installation error where someone might have used only one oring where two were required. Take a look at the pump install guides in the link below and let me know if that helps.



http://www.deatschwerks.com/resources/f ... des-videos



Thank you

James



-------------------------------------------------------------------
JAMES ARMSTRONG | Customer Service | james@deatschwerks.com
P: 405-217-0167 | F: 405-217-0700 | http://www.deatschwerks.com
cid:image001.png@01CF5E6E.6F2FC990"



I'm not sure why, but I just can't shake this feeling.... that some people will still choose to believe their tuner knows the inner workings of a fuel pump better than the people who designed and built it.

[<GB>]

my new dw 300 didn't last 1000km on 98 it didn't seem to prime then it stopped working till I bashed the tank, I pulled it off and sent it back got a new one under warranty . mine had double seal too. I re tensioned all the pins so they were tighter.

when I start my car I always let the pump prime before cranking, maybe when starting turn the key to the on position and listen for the pump it should stop after a couple of seconds which you should be able to hear then crank and see if it starts. if you have a fuel pressure gauge handy hook it up and watch when you first turn you key on it should prime to about 40-45psi, if it does and you crank you should still see pressure reading and if still have a problem starting you know its not the pump

[AJ_3RB]

Hmmm... all very interesting. Glad I posted this issue here - lots of opinions offers plenty of possible solutions. It's made me want to double check install to better clarify possible cause. I'll report back about that when done (probably next week).

By the way - have been running E85 for only two weeks now and this morning was the first time my car was reluctant to start WITH a prime. I can definitely see what you guys mean about E85 needing more crank than 98, but is definitely a different issue in itself.

Thanks for all comments/info so far.

[dr20t]

In the two years I've been running e85, I've never had a prime issue or cranking issue save for the time my car say at the workshop for 2 months getting the gearbox done.

That's with walbro 460 and 2200cc injectors

[KiDo_Tuning]

Just got an email from Deatschwerks:

"Hey Alex,

Thank you for contacting us. All of our pumps have valves in them that maintain fuel pressure while they’re off. If someone is having issues with their fuel system not maintaining pressure it is almost always due to a torn/dislodged oring on the outlet of the pump or an installation error where someone might have used only one oring where two were required. Take a look at the pump install guides in the link below and let me know if that helps.
http://www.deatschwerks.com/resources/f ... des-videos
Thank you

James
-------------------------------------------------------------------
JAMES ARMSTRONG | Customer Service | james@deatschwerks.com
P: 405-217-0167 | F: 405-217-0700 | http://www.deatschwerks.com
cid:image001.png@01CF5E6E.6F2FC990"

I'm not sure why, but I just can't shake this feeling.... that some people will still choose to believe their tuner knows the inner workings of a fuel pump better than the people who designed and built it.

As your aware, I prefer the whole stock fuel pump to flush the system before changing fuel pumps. Issue presents itself as soon as new fuel pump is fitted. Some people have run P100 and are still on 98 when they change fuel pumps. When an issue like this presents itself, I usually do my own testing... My DW65c being used in the fuel gantry lost fuel pressure within 6 seconds of fuel shut off, 4Kg of fuel pushing on the pump. All drains down... who knows, might be a bad batch? If so, I guess the one I have in the fuel gantry will be going back for warranty claim as it is obviously not holding.

[(sic)]

I have the same cold start issue. My notes:

Tuned by Matt last year on 98, stock pump, stock filter. Fine
Installed DW65c, still on 98 tune, single o ring, stock filter. Fine
Installed new filter 1 week before 85 tune, single o ring (no way it would fit 2 rings, was tight as is), DW65c, 98 tune. Fine
E85 Tuned by Matt. Starting without a prime. Not fine, 2 seconds of cranks.
E85 Tuned by Matt. Starting with a prime. Still takes longer than 98, but slightly less cranks than without a prime.

End result is I dont care how long it takes to start, I put it down to E85 being harder to turn over. Plus its winter, friggen 10 deg outside...
Now to go spend $171 on something useful like HD sway bar links.

[alexeiwoody]

As your aware, I prefer the whole stock fuel pump to flush the system before changing fuel pumps. Issue presents itself as soon as new fuel pump is fitted. Some people have run P100 and are still on 98 when they change fuel pumps. When an issue like this presents itself, I usually do my own testing... My DW65c being used in the fuel gantry lost fuel pressure within 6 seconds of fuel shut off, 4Kg of fuel pushing on the pump. All drains down... who knows, might be a bad batch? If so, I guess the one I have in the fuel gantry will be going back for warranty claim as it is obviously not holding.

I've seen 2 kido tuned liberties here (in Melb), with DW65 installed incorrectly. One owner even had the O ring on the wrong side of the pump and was wondering why it wasn't making pressure. Add another 3-4 who have had "double oring issues" with losing pressure. Double ringing is good in theory (in the right place), but again....A few of us non-kidos have run/still running single rings with no issues. There is an interesting pattern forming IMO.

As we've all done our own testing so to speak, I guess we do have a dilemma as to what's really going on.

Here are some vids of my "no prime starts". E85 cold and warm (warm is idling, then off for 30secs to test whether the pump will "drain back/lose pressure within 6 secs", then start)

As you can see, it takes an extra turnover when cold (it's 11C outside and I'm running one step colder sparks with e85. Which only support my results further yes, I'm changing the plugs to stock heat soon ), and warm start is perfect.



Skip to 0:35 for the ignition. The rest of the video is just to show that the pump is not getting power for 30secs.

[alexeiwoody]

I have the same cold start issue. My notes:

Tuned by Matt last year on 98, stock pump, stock filter. Fine
Installed DW65c, still on 98 tune, single o ring, stock filter. Fine
Installed new filter 1 week before 85 tune, single o ring (no way it would fit 2 rings, was tight as is), DW65c, 98 tune. Fine
E85 Tuned by Matt. Starting without a prime. Not fine, 2 seconds of cranks.
E85 Tuned by Matt. Starting with a prime. Still takes longer than 98, but slightly less cranks than without a prime.

End result is I dont care how long it takes to start, I put it down to E85 being harder to turn over. Plus its winter, friggen 10 deg outside...
Now to go spend $171 on something useful like HD sway bar links.

Sounds absolutely normal. Ethanol ignites differently to petrol, worse at low temps.

If you can be bothered on a cold morning, do a quick flush of the injectors by doing 1-2 quick half cranks/shots, then crank as normal. It's an ignition (ie. ethanol/water/injector/spark temperature) issue rather than fuel pressure.

As I understand, these guys are saying they had issues on 98 too. Which does point at pressure being the cause...but IMO I'd be checking the right installation first, maybe an incorrect O ring used, as there are 2 sizes, snapped something while squeezing the rings in, no lube, torn ring etc

[jay.ritchie]

starting a h6 on e85 cold as quick as on 98? pllllleaaaase.

ever since the temperature has been dropping overnight my cold starts have been getting worse and worse.
on 8 degree days i find myself cranking the car 3 seperate times with pauses between each until it gets happy enough to start.

[666]

Anti-Drain Back Valve setup for engine bay:

One of 610-06 http://www.mscn.com.au/speedflow-produc ... heck-valve
One of these 715-06-06: http://www.mscn.com.au/push-on-tails/ef ... -gm-female
One of these 716-06-06: http://www.mscn.com.au/push-on-tails/ef ... rs-gm-male
Two x of these: http://www.mscn.com.au/female-swivel-sp ... 180-degree
Not cheap option but the 2 180 degree swivels keeps the whole setup in a very compact size and is essentially clip in.

Hi Guys, these links might prove helpful on this problem.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=113087

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=113088

A good layman explanation of modern fuel systems.

Rob.