CarDoc wrote:I've been reading through this and have a bit of input.
You can not tune around mechanical issues. You have to find and repair the mechanical before the tune. Otherwise your just "spinning your wheels" and wasting time.
Irregular and inacurate information from the owner doesn't help in resolve. Its like going to the doctor and leaving out what you think is unimportant, but to the doctor it is key information.
There are plenty of references on this thread that recommended checking the mechanical funtion of the engine. And yes, a knock sensor on a Subaru is sensitive to noise. It will even pick up heat shield vibration.
The fifth gear @ 65Kph was an indication also of a mechanical issue when the fuel and ignition was altered. The car was "lugging". Too much load.
I don't believe the wastegate was the total issue. Either the true cause is being withheld or it hasn't been located. A wastegate flutter would cause irregularities in boost which would show up in logs. If the AVCS was not operating properly, why? Lack of oil? Incorrect weight? Electrical issue? Mechanical within the actuator? The flutter may have been causing a knock retard but the cause of the flutter has not been rationalized properly. Was there a vacuum leak to the wastegate?
Five Minutes is a stretch. Within this post, Kido makes suggestions towards mechanical outside the relm of wategate flutter long before the 5 minute fix which leads me to believe that Sheik was fishing for answers trying not to spend any money and trying to guess at what the problem is. (Which I believe will rear its ugly head again if it was not truly located.)
Any modifications to a vehicle need to be complete before a tune. Modifications after a tune necessitates a retune, no matter how small you think it effects the performance. When mechanical, electronic control or actuator issues arise, these need attention and repair before proceeding. When I ran into mechanical issues on the OE 3.0, I informed Ed that we need to stop until I have it resolved and begin again. In my case, it was quicker and easier to replace the engine entirely, not to mention the cost factor. Replacement with a JDM was 1/3 the cost of a rebuild.
Yes, building a modified car is costly. I have $14k USD in my build. I planned, figured cost, researched, calculated and calculated again what I intended to do long before I started the actual build. Sometimes you can get by with staged builds to stretch out the outflow of cash, but regardless, you will put out until its correct.
Ed did a great job with my build. He assisted in accomplishing something no one has been able to do before now and worked long hours on this to help me complete the car. All on a stock ECM. I am not running any EMS. I only expected Ed to handle the programming while I covered all the mechanical. When an issue arose that was mechanical, it was time to stop the tune, take care of the mechanics then resume to the next step. This is just common sense.
I can understand the frustration in trying to get the car corrected. I also understand that the whole issue was handled in a poor fashion by the owner. If you can't budget for proper operations to achieve your goal, put it on hold until you can. And I don't know anyone that can diagnose a vehicle properly without putting their hands on it. I get close most of the time, but I have also been building and repairing vehicles for almost 26 years. No car has ever beat me. And I am never wrong in my diagnostics.
west_minist wrote:You stated you had logs that stated avcs was too much. Such nonsense. But on a different note, you have not stated logs where avcs was adjusted to the point way below stock values and still the same issues. Again it highlight other issues. You state lean, yet in the pinging area of great concern the afr was below 12 and test were down to high 11's to see what it could be.
When I tune and I see a problem that I consider more serious, I focus on that. If you have spent time reviewing auto operations with just the right dbw tune, that's great for the customer. In tuning and what I offer to David, was a tune to just take care of the gas. That is more so ignition reducton due to gas and some gas Savings. I did more than I usually do to make him happy by tuning dbw, avcs and increasing boost by 1psi. I had the time do so.
As I stated to David, the reason behind this pinging and the increase in wastegate duty cycle a tab bit was my concern.
Let me state here. I am not in argument for business or tuner bashment, but to clearly and precisely stated the issues.
Knock of up to -8 can be seriously heard. -2.11 is just audible to the ear. This wasn't noted which highlighted there was no knock but mechanical noise was triggering the knock sensor. Usual knock in the lower region can be sure to valve slapping the valve seat. Like I said before, I don't see Subaru producing a car or cars this bad and tuning horrific to allow this. I personally will not compensate for such issues if the car is Stock with a stock block. To me its hiding serious issues that will show it head at a later date.
Also a bov leak is not like a wg leak becsuse the car runs a little richer because of MAF based Engine Load.
David is happy with your service. I wish him well.
Thank you very much.
KiDo_Tuning wrote:Neither am I trying to start a tuning argument I provided the tune based on the DBW fix issue David had I was asked to check some logs to determine if it was true knock since there was no knock on a knock microphone at the workshop.
The Cruise to Non-Cruise transitioning table means from low AVCS to 40 degrees AVCS during spool, AVCS is oil pump driven so high AVCS during low rpm spool where oil pressure is low already, dragging oil pressure away from the crank bearings to feed a high AVCS target which if it had been true knock on crank bearings is obviously bad. AVCS needs to meet the Volumetric Efficiency of the engine, which changes at different load sites as well, as seen in the stock tune and the H6 tune.
As demonstrated to David, the knock was worse when fuel was added(unburnt fuel in the manifold) or timing reduced(unburnt fuel in manifold again) at low piston inertia speeds which is one way to diagnose a faulty actuator. Unfortunately, an actuator is not something that can be logged for its 'position'
I was referring to the BOV leak in that vacuum on the back of the piston from the inlet manifold, with pressure on the intercooler side of the piston can push the piston open Same thing on the wastegate, exhaust manifold pressure pushing on the turbine side of the wastegate flap, dump pipe side of the flap being low pressure causing the valve to bleed open and then shut as the manifold pressure subsides.
This is the number one reason why TD04 WRX tuning benefits from tightening the wastegate actuator a few turns to stop the chatter/noise. A lot of WRX owners would know this noise to put it into perspective.west_minist wrote:You stated you had logs that stated avcs was too much. Such nonsense. But on a different note, you have not stated logs where avcs was adjusted to the point way below stock values and still the same issues. Again it highlight other issues. You state lean, yet in the pinging area of great concern the afr was below 12 and test were down to high 11's to see what it could be.
When I tune and I see a problem that I consider more serious, I focus on that. If you have spent time reviewing auto operations with just the right dbw tune, that's great for the customer. In tuning and what I offer to David, was a tune to just take care of the gas. That is more so ignition reducton due to gas and some gas Savings. I did more than I usually do to make him happy by tuning dbw, avcs and increasing boost by 1psi. I had the time do so.
As I stated to David, the reason behind this pinging and the increase in wastegate duty cycle a tab bit was my concern.
Let me state here. I am not in argument for business or tuner bashment, but to clearly and precisely stated the issues.
Knock of up to -8 can be seriously heard. -2.11 is just audible to the ear. This wasn't noted which highlighted there was no knock but mechanical noise was triggering the knock sensor. Usual knock in the lower region can be sure to valve slapping the valve seat. Like I said before, I don't see Subaru producing a car or cars this bad and tuning horrific to allow this. I personally will not compensate for such issues if the car is Stock with a stock block. To me its hiding serious issues that will show it head at a later date.
Also a bov leak is not like a wg leak becsuse the car runs a little richer because of MAF based Engine Load.
David is happy with your service. I wish him well.
Thank you very much.
west_minist wrote:Kido, please. If this was so, the stock Subaru map would have had this same 40 in such a low load of the map, even much low than one would expect, but one can understand why.
In reference to the stock tune, every serious tuner knows that the AVCS is not optimised for serious power on the car the mods it have. FYI http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1078290 and I am very well aware of the VE of the engine. As I stated to David and also on the forum. During testing many things were changes to truly identify the reason for Knock that could not be determine before a knock mic was used. David at the time could not relate if he could actually hear the engine pinging. When all tests were completed and due to my I.T work load, I was convince that the problem was not 1) Injector issues due to flow or blockage (running rich) 2) Ring issues since no oil was burning or in the intake 3) Spark plug issues 4) Coil Pack issues, etc It then boil down to some resonance was associated with this rpm range. I was not about masking the problem after hearing how noise the engine was and also knowing that Subaru engines does not do this in numbers and it needed mechanically look at. I have never ever came across in my tuning history an Actuator giving issues and produce this problem. Sorry!!!
I am not familiar with Aussie WRX issues, but the EDM. SDM and JDM wg issues I found are 1) wg not set enough to achieve boost due to ECU programming and extended wg arm 2) ECU trying to control the boost from overshooting due to wg arm a little tight. This is mostly predominate with WRX owners have a cat back exhaust and a filter upgrade.
Thanks for the info and in the long run, David is happy with your tuning, especially for the Auto tranny.
All the best!
West_MinistKiDo_Tuning wrote:Neither am I trying to start a tuning argument I provided the tune based on the DBW fix issue David had I was asked to check some logs to determine if it was true knock since there was no knock on a knock microphone at the workshop.
The Cruise to Non-Cruise transitioning table means from low AVCS to 40 degrees AVCS during spool, AVCS is oil pump driven so high AVCS during low rpm spool where oil pressure is low already, dragging oil pressure away from the crank bearings to feed a high AVCS target which if it had been true knock on crank bearings is obviously bad. AVCS needs to meet the Volumetric Efficiency of the engine, which changes at different load sites as well, as seen in the stock tune and the H6 tune.
As demonstrated to David, the knock was worse when fuel was added(unburnt fuel in the manifold) or timing reduced(unburnt fuel in manifold again) at low piston inertia speeds which is one way to diagnose a faulty actuator. Unfortunately, an actuator is not something that can be logged for its 'position'
I was referring to the BOV leak in that vacuum on the back of the piston from the inlet manifold, with pressure on the intercooler side of the piston can push the piston open Same thing on the wastegate, exhaust manifold pressure pushing on the turbine side of the wastegate flap, dump pipe side of the flap being low pressure causing the valve to bleed open and then shut as the manifold pressure subsides.
This is the number one reason why TD04 WRX tuning benefits from tightening the wastegate actuator a few turns to stop the chatter/noise. A lot of WRX owners would know this noise to put it into perspective.west_minist wrote:You stated you had logs that stated avcs was too much. Such nonsense. But on a different note, you have not stated logs where avcs was adjusted to the point way below stock values and still the same issues. Again it highlight other issues. You state lean, yet in the pinging area of great concern the afr was below 12 and test were down to high 11's to see what it could be.
When I tune and I see a problem that I consider more serious, I focus on that. If you have spent time reviewing auto operations with just the right dbw tune, that's great for the customer. In tuning and what I offer to David, was a tune to just take care of the gas. That is more so ignition reducton due to gas and some gas Savings. I did more than I usually do to make him happy by tuning dbw, avcs and increasing boost by 1psi. I had the time do so.
As I stated to David, the reason behind this pinging and the increase in wastegate duty cycle a tab bit was my concern.
Let me state here. I am not in argument for business or tuner bashment, but to clearly and precisely stated the issues.
Knock of up to -8 can be seriously heard. -2.11 is just audible to the ear. This wasn't noted which highlighted there was no knock but mechanical noise was triggering the knock sensor. Usual knock in the lower region can be sure to valve slapping the valve seat. Like I said before, I don't see Subaru producing a car or cars this bad and tuning horrific to allow this. I personally will not compensate for such issues if the car is Stock with a stock block. To me its hiding serious issues that will show it head at a later date.
Also a bov leak is not like a wg leak becsuse the car runs a little richer because of MAF based Engine Load.
David is happy with your service. I wish him well.
Thank you very much.
west_minist wrote:Its done so as you know for emissions. Also any tuner would have some postings and again the stock map is never up hold and change in tuning. So your statements on it does not fit the postings in the forum which is there for all to see and what usually happen by all tuners.
On that nore, it was and is great you have a mic to check for knock. Like I stated, I don't MASK issues and will not accommodate for issues unless I have too. I treat the root problem and not the causes and my recommendation for any of my customers - locally or internally, see a mechanic to have a full review on the engine.
Like I stated, I am happy you have resolve his issues and you have a happy customer, especially in DBW performance on the automatic.
west_minist wrote:Easter Tuning Special
The following maps will be tuned:
- Boost increase by 0.5psi - 1psi - All Around
- Wastegate maps to allow for 0.5psi-1psi boost increase
- Fuel Maps
- Ignition maps
- DBW - Street Tuned
- Other minor additional maps
bass_straitener wrote:Good write up and thanks for sharing your journey and thoughts from a customer view point on the your tune.
Just wondered if you tune with a wideband O2 gauge and boost gauge installed.
bass_straitener wrote:Well the very situation Matt determined as the cause of the false knock is being examined.
http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9192
Let's see what the rest of the world thinks.
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