336.2Kw ATW Liberty H6 Biturbo pre 1/4 mile tune

[SH30RB]

Maybe we need more cubes in Australia

Lets get some capacity happening and run these Swedes down lol

i can see one of us developing a 3.6TT set up in the near future

[kiks]

3.6 is a dog of an engine.

[DeMobBoss]

3.6 is a dog of an engine.

As much as I hate to say it this is true - there are too many bugs to be ironed out and not enough off the shelf parts to make em any stronger. Takes a gung ho pioneer mentality and deep deep pockets to do this engine properly and I believe it genuinely has lotsa potential - unfortunately people and companies in the US that tried to unleash it have now either folded or closed the engine building side of their company after the GFC. Hence I'm swallowing my own words and reverting back to the much more straightforward and relatively economical built 3.0TT setup...

[kleinerbastler]

I think for acceleration are LSD necassary, so you can prevent lost of power over one wheel. Tommi used a torsen in front and 1.5 clutched one in the rear. I think with this on the car it will improve the time without more power.
The problem with Subaru center diff is, that it needs difference in axle spin front/rear. So if you start realy hard the front wheels will spin for a part of a second until the center diff close. The Subi is in this way for the part of a second like a front wheel car.
So something like a Torsen center would be awesome , but...

For the 3.0l in US are forged internals available. I believe from Supertech you get pistons (ca 650$) and valves (Set with evrything for valves ca 1000$) and Pauter make rods (ca. 1200$), i think new sleeves maybe are not necessary - much money and work.

[DeMobBoss]

Thanks Kleinerbastler - what you say makes sense and yes we will need to change diffs later when power increases so that set up you mention makes sense but will research it more wehn we cross that bridge.
And yes for the 3.0L motor off the shelf forged internals are available which makes it the sensible and relatively much cheaper option when building vs price of custom parts required for the 3.6L as no one can be bothered to makes off the shelf forged parts for the 3.6 as yet let alone custom parts- believe me we've tried very hard to convince them to.

[SH30RB]

like kleinerbastler said, supertech make quite a few forged internals for us, but i havent come across anyone besides pauter making forged rods.

like you, jeremy, i think ill be heading down this path once im off my p's

[kiks]

Buying ebay ez30r internals lolololol.

Supertech horror stories? Check
Pauter 30 year old tooling rods? Check.
Unknown springs from dodgy mob that noone serious uses? Check.


Go for gold!

Edit:
The 36r is not a 'huge problem', the issue is that if you are building something for big HP you end up needing to de stroke it to 3 litres or so anyway and run some proper sleeves. The benefit is exhaust AVCS and a stronger bore, the loss is intake AVLS and huge money. You still need to CD the block, and the machining costs on the 3.6 would go through the roof compared to quick and dirty 3.0. And at the power any transmission under 20k can handle, whats the point of going over 700hp? 3.0R does it with ease on stock liners.

[kiks]

So something like a Torsen center would be awesome , but...

No, its possibly the worst thing you could put in, and I'd suspect you would look forward to parts of steel going from your gearbox, and through your roof with any hard drag use. Torsen centre is so good it is used by everyone no-one with any power and traction at all except a few audi's.

[kleinerbastler]

kiks, i don´t what kind of gras you smoke, but....
The forged internals i have named were used by Perrin for the 3.0 Turbo project and are working fine, i don´t know where you have found your very informative sources about the quality. Yes you could buy them over ebay (i never would use this way), is this a problem?
A Torsen style center would be the a good and possible upgrade for the viscous center (think about what is realy worst) in the nonDCCD 6MT if you don´t need the locking of the center unit in very dirty conditions. But if you are the real master of knowledge, then show me the lines where is written that torsen is worse then the viscouse thing from Subaru and if there is (i don´t know one) a torsen center diff for Subaru 6Mt existent, that this one will destroy the tranny.

[kiks]

The h6 perrin impreza thats blown up 3 times now?
The perrin h6 impreza they cant even get to idle and was sold on, pulled apart, reassembled and still a mess of junk piggybacks and shit
Or the perrin h6 with the undersize turbo running 234907234 different electric boxes and water/meth etc to make less power and torque across the entire curve than any other turbo h6?
A couple of H6 turbos not plastered across the net using decent rods and pistons with mega power and reliability. Not once heard of one with supertech junk lasting, spoonaugles was sold then blew up, one somewhere in vic blew up...Awesome track record.

As for diffs, have you ever looked at a torsen? Do you know what happens when you freewheel and output, like with 600hp and no front traction? You realise what happens with 600nm, and a 5:1 torque multiplication or so on a wheel spinning at 20,000rpm on a 3/8th shaft with massive radial and torsional loding? The only car to ever use them with success was audi group b cars, and they were a disposable item with a 3-5 hour lifespan...

On a street car, probably amazing for controlling out corner oversteer when combined with a proper set of diffs front and rear, I'd imagine it would be nearly unbeatable control..Excitingly so. But freewheeling two fronts on big weight shift causes it to completely lose any quantitative resistance and become an open diff. Go drive with a helical front diff in a car that lifts the front inside 2 inches off the ground and tell me the sharks teeth profile of the spur gears is a good thing when they spin off all the lubrication. First thing done is replacing it in anything thats likely to actually lose traction. They are not a limited slip differential.

Do you honestly care to refute the millions in RnD spent on 4wd systems across all the manufacturers and say 'hey no-one thought about a torsen centre'?

Just FYI, the market for replacement audi torsen centres is fairly big worldwide, and they are not installed in anything with much horsepower

But I'm not here to say dont try it, just to say that others with endless RnD budgets already have.

[kiks]

GTR clutch
evo clutch
sti clutch
lambo clutch
R8 clutch
most porkas clutch
Ferrari 4wd? crank driven clutch
Random obsure 80's group b rally car with unlimited budget, and low powered northern europe family sedans? Helical

One of these things just doesnt belong here

[smythie]

Great result for the h6! Qualify 'fastest h6 powered gen 4 sedan' Heavy mof's though.

The Tommi Subaru with Rotrex centrigual SC (@ and 3.6 liter - 8.7psi) Quatermile: 12.1sec / 182kmh

You can see we are at a bit of a disadvantage to beat that time with a 3.0 even at 13psi.

Maybe we need more cubes in Australia

Lets get some capacity happening and run these Swedes down lol

182km/h = 113mph. Indicates to me a better launch but less power than the car of this topic

[kleinerbastler]

kiks, i hope you have taken the first lines from my last post as a little joke ,
but i was very disapointed about telling things about something without detailed information.
About the "Torsen like Diffs" your thoughts about the driveshafts i share. But i think, if someone will use a torsen center in a sporty way at front and rear LSD are necessary to eliminate the opportunity of lost the torque - so that the worst case for the center will only take effect, if on whole axle is free or lifted, but for street use never should happen. The Audi R8 uses a viscous center like it is used by Lambo, i think they like to hold the costs down and take things they own in their "family" (engine too), this kind of viscous diff is nearer to the Subaru viscous unit style then to the Haldex clutched units. Torsen center are used by many manufactors like Toyota and GM, have different brand names but works nearly the same way. Short history about Audi, they have used the Torsen center in the group B Audi Rally car just for one rally in 1983, all other rallys during the group B time they used locked center and rear and sometimes also front - unbelievable how Walther had driven such car. Maybe i should ask him, if he knows what the biggest problem with the Torsen was.
No question, the electronical controlled clutched center diffs are better then a Torsen, but to make a DCCD swap will costs more then a Torsen center to install.
I believe evry one has to know the limits of the used technique, so for one a viscous center is more useful then a Torsen and for the other one.... (electronical controled would be perfect )
But that shouldn´t be LSD thread, it´s about H6 power.
Do you realy think that the problems with Perrins H6 have anything to do with the forged parts they used? I think it´s more the way US boys tune their cars, but maybe you have detailed information about the reasons of the blown up engines.

[iisshhyy]

i've got a feeling kiks has detailed informating about pretty much everything

[kleinerbastler]

So i ask Jeff about his experience about Pauter and Supertech
my question was:
...
Hello,
i´ve read the blog about your H6 turbo. Now i like to build such engine by myself. Do you have any hints for me, maybe where traps are waiting .
Can you tell me how satisfied you were with the forged parts from Pauter and Supertech (valves too), can you recommend them to me or had some of them any issue?

Kind regards Ingmar

the answer:
...
Ingmar,
That blog post is really the best thing to use as a reference. There are
lots of traps and lots of things to consider. The Supertech and Pauter
parts are perfect and something you will NEVER worry about failing. We do not
offer any parts for these engines so all the little things are items you
will have to come up with. Sorry i can't be more help!

Jeff Perrin - Research and Development
...