ej25/ej20tt hybrid

[Jim]

He was also running like E85 instead of PULP

[telemekas]

He was also running like E85 instead of PULP

No PULP

[ej25tt]

The bloke that helped build my car is about to have his HillClimb car finished, and once tuned, we'll both be doing trap speed and e/t runs. this with repeated 225+ readouts, should surely be enough for anyone to agree at that point, that i will be the first to do so! again, it seems everyone is failing to take into account, this is not 2.0L, and is now 2.5L, meaning 25% larger displacement, which in turn will have an affect on output. and given that 2.0tt's have been tuned to 185-200, an extra 20kw is not much extra to seek to achieve, especially with 25% better capacity. I comprehend it doesn't necessarily work that way, but merely a 10% gain out of 25% larger capacity would see that target met. again, my aim here is to prove that a sequential turbo set-up on a boxer, can net 200+kw atw, and hopefully even 300hp. But i guess we will see. and if for some reason, my calculations turn into 2+2=1.8695439 and not 4, then i will humbly and gracefully apologise to all concerned, especially Jim, however, i am confident that my combination is capable of that and a bit more.

we shall all soon see.

What turbos will you be using?
Billsy gernerated 229Kw (107/229) ATW sequentially (3rd gear Boost 19psi) using VF26/VF27 combination with 2.2L (the ECV and the turbine housings were ported)
These turbos were essentially maxed out at the time.
Swapping the primary VF26 exhaust housing from P14 to P16 would probably yield a significant increase.
However as you have a 2.5L you could use some high flowed RHF5 comp wheel ->VF14 BB CHRA onto P16/P18 housing.

Here is the engine breakdown...

ej251 Block
CP Forged Pistons (100mm)
Eagle H-Beam Rods
Standard Legacy B4 RSK Heads, Manifolds, turbos (VF 32/33), computer, wiring, etc.
K&N Air Filter
walbro 500hp Fuel Pump (in tank)
Greddy Fuel Pressure Regulator (set @ 40psi)
3" dump pipes into single 3.5" exhaust, with high flow cat, and single rear muffler.
Mines Turbo Blankets
turbosmart Boost controller
Turbosmart plumback wastegate/BOV
just waiting on Hyperflow TMIC and CAI

and custom tune.
thats it.

[Gambit]

Nice work and goodluck with the build

[Robbks]

unless you do something about the horrid factory plastic intake, you'll be pushing shit up a hill with a stick to make 200KW+
and the ECV in the secondary up-pipe is another major restriction.

i'd love to see a TT make power, but you need a lot of customisation to get it to do it, and i don;t think your current plan will make it happen
a 3.5" exhaust is not needed for those power levels

that kind of power is also pushing the tiny turbo's very hard and i'd like to see a FMIC on it to cope with the heat that they will generate

[Jim]

3" dumps? Say goodbye to your turbos prematurely. The turbine outlet on the TT's are like the size of a 20c peice, massive overkill. The turbos you want to use are going to be your biggest restriction. A TMIC? Detonation will be your new best friend, if you plan to boost up the turbos to make your power. 40psi fuel pressure? Overkill. What injectors are you using?

[Robbks]

Jimbo, stock v3-v6 440's use 45 psi base pressure.
and yeah, 3" dump on the primary is fine due to the single wastegate but 2.5" on the secondary
the secondary only reveives about 2/3 of the exhaust flow of the primary due to the restriction from the ECV

i'd like to see this done properly as a proper, parallel twin setup.

[ej25tt]

3" dumps maybe considered excessive, however, being turbo-charged back pressure is not a must, and having too big is better than having too small...and i don't see how you think that excess dump pipe diameter will affect longevity of the turbos negatively. then you go on to say 40psi fuel pressure is overkill, before 'asking' what injectors im using. how the f$%k can you come to a conclusion without knowing all the determining factors. as robbks said, the factory injectors run 45psi. you make plenty of assumptions and un-proven statements, and it makes me helps me disregard your opinions more and more every time you post. no wonder your B4 never made bugger all power, and you hit so many brick walls, you think you know everything. And if i wanted that sort of intelligence, i'd of just stuck with MRT's suggestions/advice.


@ROBBKS, thanks mate, everythings going well, car is so violent in accelleration, absolutely NO VOD whatsoever. just gotta get my new truck working before i spend the money on the intercooler and cai.then the world will know if i'm as arrogant as JIM, or whether it is possible to get 200awkw from the sequential set-up. cheers for watching.

[Jim]

"3inch dumps maybe considered excessive, however, being turbo-charged back pressure is not a must, and having too big is better than having too small"...
Add a bigger dump pipe, you get boost spikes. Fact. Anyone whos done an exhaust here will tell you that.

"i don't see how you think that excess dump pipe diameter will affect longevity of the turbos negatively"
Becuase i have blown TT turbos like this. Primary's especially, dont last a great deal of time being overboosted, fact.

"then you go on to say 40psi fuel pressure is overkill, before 'asking' what injectors im using"
I asked you in the same post.

I never had a shitty pinged to death B4, i had a 97' Legacy GT-B.

Everything im telling you is fact, if your going to have an exhaust that big on a weedy TT turbo, why dont you just turf the exhaust all together? A larger dia. exhaust that size WILL OVERSPOOL YOUR TURBOS TO DEATH. Does the fact that EVERYONE who has ever added a full TBE to their cars has made more boost make ANY sense to you? The TT system is fragile and redundent.

I know all these things because i have been there and done that, i had the big dream goal of making 200kw atw with a TT just like yourself, do you think i make this up just for a laugh? Wake up.

I didnt succeed becuase the factory sequential system just isnt capable of it, this is the "Brick wall" you spoke about me hitting. This will be your undoing, and what im trying to tell you. Build your 200kw monster but dont bother keeping it sequential twin turbo becuase you WILL fail.

I have personal experience modifying a TT for trying to squeeze every last ounce of power, you dont.

I seriously cant beleive how personally your taking this, im not having a stab at you for having a go, i would encourage you more than anything but im telling you the FACTS why it wont turn out how you would like.

I might be arrogant but your completely ignorant.

[sooobi]

Runamuk, why did you decide to go with a TT conversion in the first place?

Whoever told you TT was superior to STI really did put you crook..

[Robbks]

"3inch dumps maybe considered excessive, however, being turbo-charged back pressure is not a must, and having too big is better than having too small"...
Add a bigger dump pipe, you get boost spikes. Fact. Anyone whos done an exhaust here will tell you that.

"i don't see how you think that excess dump pipe diameter will affect longevity of the turbos negatively"
Becuase i have blown TT turbos like this. Primary's especially, dont last a great deal of time being overboosted, fact.

^^ bingo, especially when the primary is doing 75% of the work all teh time.
pushing such a small turbo to 18psi flogs them to death.
doing as much work to the secondry side of the system to allow it to work harder by providing it with more exhaust flow through porting the ECV, up-pipe flanges etc will help to ease the workload on the primary.

the best way of seeing how much work each turbo is doing is to run three boost gauges

have your main boost gauge reading manifold pressure from the manifold.
then install one each at the turbo outlets before the intercooler.
you will be amazed at the difference in the readings and how much backpressure there is in the tiny TMIC pipes
and thus excessive pumping losses reducing your power potential and making the turbo's work harder than they need to.
FMIC pipes WILL lower this restriction in the intake, post turbo's, but you've still got the pre-turbo bottleneck.

the entire system is flawed, both jim andf myself persevered so much with the TT system and didn't give in to the TT haters, however, unlike Jim i didn;t have the mechanical failures to contend with and stretch my patience or budget as much, but it was still a struggle keeping it working correctly.

a 2.5 will make 200ATW with a VF28/29/24
if 200ATW is your goal, there are cheap and simple ways of doing it.
TT is neither cheap or simple

[ej25tt]

Firstly Jim, I am not taking it personally. If anything I merely see it as objective criticism, and this just makes me more determined to prove it can be done. If in fact it can. If not, and like I suggested toward you, 'I' am the one making a fool of myself, I will humbly apologise for my "ignorance", making the apology a full post one this forum. However, whilst the oppurtunity still exists, I will continue to follow my path, and attempt it. If my turbo(s) let go, I will buy another, and if that fails, I will have it (them) rebuilt with Mitsubishi internals, and suited for my purpose. As soon as I can get the intercooler fitted, (being the last piece I require at present, then I will take it for its tune, then take it to the strip to get the trap speed / e.t.a. times that you request. Right or wrong, your path was different to mine in respect of our builds. slight differences, but maybe enough to get the slim extra i need to get over that 200kw mark.

as i don't ultimately care, due to the fact i am only filling in time until i can put the H6TT in the engine bay, i am happy to go either way. But to be the first to do it, would be awesome. 200kw on pump fuel, would be fun. As it is, i enjoy driving the car immensely...And with VERY VERY MINIMAL V.O.D. its accelleration is awesome. And once my real engine goes in, there are plenty of donor cars in the shed which can take the limited 'pinged out' B4 engine.

As for "sooobi", who said TT is superior to STI? single turbo shits all over TT in respect of power figures...anyday...the header tank on the radiator for the factory engine cracked, over heating the original n/a 2.5, so instead of just wacking another stock 2.5 in, the conversion came up for what seemed the right price, and was only meant to be intermediate. but when the b4 was started after conversion completed, a big end knock became apparent. So i put forged internals in the original 2.5 block, etc, put the TT heads etc on it, and went from there.

Robbks, I appreciate that there are easier ways of reaching 200kw. if that was my reason to start with, i would have bought an early wrx engine, 2.5 block, and bigger turbo with front mount. job done. And trust me, i understand TT is not cheap, nor simple. I havnt done this without expense. however, i saw this car make 177.18awkw (240.9hp) 1st run, 171.74 2nd run (233.5hp), and 148.79 (202.3hp) when we dropped the PEAK boost to 10psi on the 3rd run (as fresh engine i wanted to do the first 2500km running rich on low boost for safety reasons), with no modifications, save for the 2.5 bottom end, on factory boost levels. 1.75" dumps, 2.25" exhaust, f*^ked fuel pump, faulty afm, NO fuel pressure regulator (the factory one was f*^ked), factory intercooler, simply on run in. i don't think 30awkw is much to try and gain. lets say 50kw to allow for %readout error. considering standard ej20tt's have achieved 170-180awkw after MRT exhaust and intercooler, gaining 30-40awkw, then surely my targets can't be that impossible. again, if im wrong, im happy to apologise humbly.

[ej25tt]

By the way Jim, I'm taking it all on the chin. I may very well be wrong, but I have not seen anywhere postings, articles, nor write-ups of anyone doing what i'm doing. changing capacity doesn't neccessarily mean easier hp, nor making my target automatically happen. but it does help. and until someone shows me evidence that what im trying has been attempted, and failed, im going to have a go. And thanks for the heads up on what the problem areas are. you've given me more info then anyone else here, even though in a somewhat negative 'tone'. Its been appreciated. Cheers...

By the way, I just ordered a pipe bender, so I can have a go at trying to produce a better manifold/ecv set-up. I'll let you know how it goes.

[outlander]

i own a 225kwatw TT B4 liberty

the InterCooler Valve was replaced with a one way valve with better flow
the Exhaust Control Valve was gutted and ported and replaced with a more effecient design
upgraded hybrid turbos td04/vf32 td04/vf33 (cant remember exact details)
TBE, TMIC, CAI, ECUTEK

it is POSSIBLE but it does require some mods to the system

[Robbks]

i own a 225kwatw TT B4 liberty

the InterCooler Valve was replaced with a one way valve with better flow
the Exhaust Control Valve was gutted and ported and replaced with a more effecient design
upgraded hybrid turbos td04/vf32 td04/vf33 (cant remember exact details)
TBE, TMIC, CAI, ECUTEK

it is POSSIBLE but it does require some mods to the system

2.0 or 2.5 bottom end?