Audio for dummies - advice required.

[OzSTi]

I've been reading through the posts on this sub-forum and it all goes over my head.

In layman's terms could someone suggest a staged approach to improving the 14 speaker McIntosh. Like we modify our cars bit by bit, can this approach be made to the stereo stopping when you're happy with the result?

To my ears, the system lacks the clarity I hear in two other Audis I've been in.

What's the first thing I should do, and then where to after that. I'm not after show standard stereo or mega sound, just 'clarity'.

Thanks.

[loweart]

Hi OzSTi,

Ok, let take a deep breath and then try to answer your question as best as I can. Shame that you're not in Brisbane, otherwise I would have been happy to meet up with you and discuss over a latte !

Yes, by all means you could upgrade your car's sound system in a staged approach and no you don't have to buy the most expensive gear out there to achieve the sound improvements you're looking for.

Keep in mind also that the sound "characteristics" you prefer listening to may not be what someone else prefers. The best advice I can give anyone looking at getting better audio gear is to treat those who tell you consistently that one product is better sounding than another with some caution. For sure like any industry or products there will be good brand and bad brands. But for audio gear, once you discard the cheap and nasty stuff, the gear that is left will just sound different as you compare one to another.

I have just recently sold my Liberty 2.5 and bought a Libery 3.0R and have test driven a few 2.0 GT's so the sonic character of the McIntosh is still pretty fresh in my mind.

I believe the makers of this sound system "tried' to produce an in car version of the typical McIntosh home Hi Fi equipment and yes I am experienced to make this comparison having heard and worked with McIntosh Hi Fi equipment in the past. Problem is that in a small way they kind of got some aspects of the sonic signature, but missed the mark in other ways.

Coincidentally, prior to me going to the Liberty, I was the owner of a AUDI A4 Quattro V6 and that came with a factory Harman Kardon system with 2 way component splits in the front doors and 2 ways in the parcel shelf with a boot mounted 10 disc stacker. Sonically, I believe it was a better sounding system ( although certainly not perfect ) when compared with the McIntosh. It was more neutral sounding, hence a little more clarity than the warm sounding McIntosh. Much to my surprise when I upgraded the system in my Audi, I found the speakers had NOKIA stamped on the back of the speaker magnets whilst the headunit and CD stacker were clearly made by Eurovox !

I believe the best place to start an upgrade with the audio system in your Liberty if you want to do it in stages is to look at replacing the existing speakers first ! That said, you DON'T need to replace all the existing 13/14 speakers with the same amount, think quality over quantity. I recently removed all the 13 speakers in my 3.0R and replaced them with 2 pairs of 2 ways: that was a pair of 2 way co-axials in the rear doors and a pair of 2 way component splits for the front doors. Vast improvement gained there. You don't need to buy uber expensive ones either, just good quality ones that are easy to drive.

As you can imagine the selection of speaker brands and configurations can be endless, so rather than have you read lines and lines of text or for me to block up these forums, I'm happy for you to email directly with your concerns/questions/needs/wants and I'll do my best to answer them in layman's and unbiased terms.

my personal email is: lok_lowe@hotmail.com

Cheers,
Lok

[tmacca]

Ozsti,

You’ve got some good advice from Lok.

There is no best brand or best sound – I have a personal preference and it is just that (based on my experience). I'm sure Lok has his preferences.

Best thing you can do is go and listen to as much gear as you can. Be careful not compare what is in someone’s car directly with a soundboard in a car audio shop (not only is the listening environment different but also there can be many tricks hidden behind a sound board). Take your own CDs or ipod with and listen to tracks that you know well.

If the budget can’t stretch to a complete change of system, then stages is the way to go and yes speakers first (and you certainly don’t need 13 or 14). If you are not going to install the gear yourself let the installer know your plans – it may help map out priorities for you (you may actually be able to do more than you planned initially). Once you move away from the original amp (which is not particularly powerful) and head unit things get a bit more expensive. I still use the factory head unit (McIntosh), which actual provides a very clean signal (once you get ride of the standard amp things change dramatically). Despite what others have written about the standard McIntosh unit, it’s biggest weakness is at the amp/speaker end. Like all standard units it is built to a budget.

Listen to all the advice (particularly unbiased advice suck as Lok’s), but ultimately trust your own ears.

And by the way, Clarion bought “McIntosh Industries” in the early 1990s – thus the Clarion link. In the early 2000s it was sold to D & M Holdings (which formed from the merger of Denon and Marantz, two Japanese companies with very good audio reputations) and who knows, someone else in more recent years has probably bought them out. So the “label” doesn’t often tell us very much at all.

Good Luck

[loweart]

I'll happily back up what tmacca has added to this thread, especially about trusting your own ears and using CDs/music you're familar with to audition the equipment.

Although, I would hope that what's in this quote from tmacca is just a typo ->

Listen to all the advice (particularly unbiased advice suck as Lok’s),
Good Luck

As I surely hope my unbiased advice doesn't "suck" ! Hehe

Seriously, all spot on info from tmacca about the McIntosh gear and aftermarket gear.

I'm here to help if I can and the only agenda I have is to help others make a better or more informed decision so they don't waste their money regardless of how much they are wanting to spend. To quote my old school moto, knowledge is power !

As I said in my previous post, please feel free to email me with any questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.

Cheers,
Lok

[adam]

k is "kinda" close to h

[smythie]

lysdexic fingers?

[OzSTi]

Thanks for your input Lok and tmacca.

So the speakers are the first problem to address. Do I have to remove them all? For instance, is the factory base ok, and I just replace a few? Or are they all a problem and leaving any in place will nullify any benefits from a few high quality ones?

Why'd they put so many in? Because it looks good in the brochure to say 14 speakers, rather than just four really good ones?

Now I'm wondering how much weight could I save removing these excess speakers!

[loweart]

Thanks for your input Lok and tmacca.

So the speakers are the first problem to address. Do I have to remove them all? For instance, is the factory base ok, and I just replace a few? Or are they all a problem and leaving any in place will nullify any benefits from a few high quality ones?

Why'd they put so many in? Because it looks good in the brochure to say 14 speakers, rather than just four really good ones?

Now I'm wondering how much weight could I save removing these excess speakers!

Hi OzSTi,

YES, the speakers are your best place to start because they aren't high quality drivers. Also, by replacing the speakers first ( providing you select good quality replacements ), you will be then in a better position to know ( by listening ) whether you need or want to upgrade/replace the existing headunit.

It's really an all or nothing exercise, there is no benefit in keeping some of the existing speakers wired in along with new aftermarket speakers as this will undoubtedly cause a mismatch sonically and may impair the operation of the existing system's amp due to possible impedance issues.
Sorry for getting "techie" on you as I know you prefer layman's terms, so think in terms of why you can't keep connecting a 6 outlet powerboard to another powerboard to a dual power outlet etc........ There's a limit to the current draw or load that you can put on any system.

That said, if you don't physically remove some of the existing speakers, there's no room/space for you to mount your replacement speakers. The only speakers I would not physically remove, but make sure they are NOT still wired are the super tweeters on the A pillar corners of the front doors. The reason is if you physically remove them, it will leave exposed the internal side of the car mirrors and it's wiring, which means you'll need to source some plastic cover plates from the normal Liberty sedan model to hide this exposed area. I can't see the point of spending money needlessly.

So, you remove the bass driver speakers ( front door bottom corner ), the tweeters ( behind the grill near the door release handle ) and you may need to remove the midrange driver ( behind the smaller speaker grill half way up the door trim ) so that you have the space to mount the cross-over box for the new 2 way split component speakers.

The rear doors are much easier as you simply take out the existing speakers and replace them with a better quality speaker of the same size.

In doing all the above, you will need to consider making up some sort of spacer plates to ensure clearance of the speaker basket/magnets from the door's window glass when wound down as well as ensuring the new speaker drivers are firing through the door trim grills and not into the underside of the door trims. These spacers can be simply made from either MDF ( medium density fibreboard ) or marine plywood.

Honestly, only the designers can answer why 14 speakers. But I think the designers/engineers truly wanted to build a system in a car environment that could compensate for the difficult variables of a car environment so it would sound like a good home Hi Fi system. Usual story I guess, there's always a budget to adhere to at the end of the day and bean counters ( accountants ) rule the world. Last year, I did a retro-fit on a 1998 Jaguar XK8 coupe which had a Harman Kardon system and the speaker drivers weren't much better quality than that of our Liberty's McIntosh system, this in a car that was almost $200,000 AUD when new.

Undoubtedly, having a sales brochure that quotes a sound system that has 14 speakers WOULD be a selling point to the majority of the buying public and the uninitiated. In addition to that, think of the prestige a name like McIntosh brings into the equation - well, only if you're aware of who McIntosh are. Majority of people wouldn't have heard of McIntosh as a brand name and most of those who have only know of it by reputation, as their entry level solid state stereo amplifier is about $6,000 AUD, the AM/FM tuner is about $4,000 AUD and their tube integrated amp is a touch over $12,000 AUD. I think you get the picture.......

You won't actually save weight by ditching the factory speakers because if you replace them with new quality units, the ones going back into the doors in their place will be at least double the weight of the factory OEM speakers. No, I'm not kidding you !

Oh, if you intend on doing all this work yourself. A word to the wise, make sure you park your car on a cement floor so that if any retaining clips fling/fall/drop off whilst you're pulling the door trim panels off, you can easily see where they land and find them. The white plastic star clips that hold the door trim onto the door can be purchased easily at car accessory stores relatively cheaply in small packs, but the metal spring clips that hold the plastic cover plate that mounts over the door grab handles cannot be purchased as separate parts. Subaru only supply these clips with the door grab handle as a complete part ( approx. $50 for a grab handle & 2 spring clips )!

Also, when you get to mount the tweeters from your new aftermarket pair of 2 way splits, a tube of clear silicone sealant in a chalking gun will be very handy. Regardless of what mounting hardware is left when you remove the car's existing tweeters and what may be supplied with the speakers you purchase, there's a good chance that none of it will be suitable in allowing you to attach/afix the tweeters in the preferred angle/position. Remember, high frequency sound is directional, so you will need to sit in the car ( you in driver's seat of course ) with the system wired up and playing something with good high notes so that you can adjust the angle of each of the tweeters in the front doors to optimum position. This is where the tube of silicone comes in. You squirt enough onto the base of the mounting area of the tweeters so that the tweeter's base can sit in it but still be moved/adjusted. Once you've finished the adjustment, just apply a little more around the sides of tweeter and mounting bracket ( being careful not to get any of the silicone on the tweeter membrane ) to help keep it from moving and then let the silicone cure before putting the door trim back on.

[OzSTi]

Hmmm...

This all sounds too scary to attempt myself!

I've found it interesting that whilst I've been perfectly happy to replace (so far),

Brake rotors and callipers
Springs
Sway bars
Wheels
Dump pipe / front pipe
Intercooler
Pitch mount
Panel filter
ECU (ECUTEK)
Grill
Gear shift

...I still struggle with the concept of replacing a few speakers. Weird hey!

Seriously, thanks Lok for the time you've obviously taken with your posts. Certainly if I was in Brisbane I'd pay you a visit.

I think for the moment I'll wind down the window and listen to the exhaust track, but I will keep in mind what you've said.

Cheers,

Michael.

[tangcla]

Michael, once you start taking things apart, it's actually not that hard.

You can get the USDM Legacy service manual (with full disassembly instructions) from here.

[loweart]

Hmmm...

This all sounds too scary to attempt myself!

...I still struggle with the concept of replacing a few speakers. Weird hey!

Cheers,

Michael.

Hey OzSTI ( Michael ),

It's really not as scary as it all sounds, especially considering some of the work that you have already managed to perform on your Liberty - changing speakers out is a walk in the park in comparison to some of the things you've mentioned.

If you were in Brisbane, I would have been more than happy to show you how easy most of this is to do yourself and let you get an idea of the sort of improvements in sound quality that a speaker upgrade can provide.

Happy to offer the info and considering it's all in the forum here, it may be of use to others contemplating a system upgrade.

Cheers,
Lok

[OzSTi]

I should point out that I haven't done all this myself. ...just that I was happy to have this done to the car but I was reluctant to have the sound system modified. Cheers Guys.

[loweart]

Well, you've improved the rest of the car with those mods, it only makes sense to continue on the inside.

Seriously, you shouldn't be hesitant about getting at least the speakers upgraded - it's not like you're doing any damage or serious modification to the car's interior. Done the way I have pointed out, no one but you will physically see the difference with new speakers fitted.

If you were located in Brisbane, we could have it done over a few coldies on a Sunday

Most experienced car stereo fitters will be able to do the 4 speaker fit out in the way I described for you in about 4hrs.

[cpitts]

I should point out that I haven't done all this myself. ...just that I was happy to have this done to the car but I was reluctant to have the sound system modified. Cheers Guys.

I don't mean to rain on the LoK parade here but there's one VERY critical element that's missing in this very complex puzzle. Certainly one that's normally missed by people eager to race off and spend a couple of K on speakers, amps and head units.

Correct me if I'm wrong OzSTi, but what you're after is:
- Clarity (hearing those strings individually plucked, the subtle vocals from the backup singers, the sound effects oh so delicately placed in the rear to help tell the story)
- A cost effective staged approach that's additive if you move up, not rip and replace.

Having done stereo's in my WRX's, Liberties and other cars over the last 12 years, I can agree with most of what LoK is saying but have to disagree on his approach for the MY07 GT-B range. Primarily on 2 fronts.
1. The head unit is SO integrated that replacing it is only going to look crap
2. The amplifier uses BALANCED inputs, not unbalanced like 90%+ of the car amps on the market today

Both these hurdles have forced me to change my approach on this cars stereo.

Normally, I'd do a similar approach to LoK:
- HU
- Amp
- Speakers

But this time I've taken a different path, to get back that missing stage, balance and clarity.

- Sound Deadening all doors (cheap ~$280 for 4 doors self installed) - very good improvement in mid/vocals and clarity
- Speakers
- Cabling (re-cable speakers to amp and power/earth to HU/Amp)

These changes have greatly improved the sound QUALITY immensely over the factory lack of deadening and also lowered the road noise floor of the car. Total weight cost was ~8-10kg.

I've been doing the changes incrementally and even without the front speakers upgrade, the quality improvement from deadening is significant and quite noticeable. The added benefit is WHEN you upgrade speakers, they'll be able to perform at their best immediately and provide an even more significant improvement than just dropping into factory (undeadened) doors, even on well made MDF mounts.

Here's an example of a before and after deadened door, you'll probably get the picture why it's improved, it simply behaves more like a speaker cabinet now! (even with the window down!)

Before (standard door):


After (bit of deadener added ):


All views expressed so far are valid if you can jump in and replace the HU and amp, but the MY07 limits you significantly as it's so heavily integrated so dropping it out and putting in an Alpine or similar unit just isn't an (easy) option. Trust me, I've been looking for ANY option here!

[tmacca]

Cpitts,

Good point - sounding deadening is a very important part of the equation, one that many people either ignore or put it in the "too hard" basket. I don't think it is quite as easy as you paint it (you obviously have experience in dealing with dynamat) but certainly most people could do it with a bit of patience.

Important things to remember with sound deadening is that you are trying to effectively create a sealed enclosure with the speaker face being the only avenue for sound to escape the enclosure. I'm not sure if the second photo is your finished product, but I would personally be placing the deadening all the way to the edge of each speaker and make sure there are no holes in the door at all.

In addition to the deadening a diffuser panel/sheet directly behind the driver is also a very important step (to help control the bouncing sound wave behind the speaker/sound cancellation etc.).

I agree that deadening helps with clarity but its greatest benefit is in the mid bass/bass frequencies, not so much in the vocal frequencies.

And yes, cabling is also important.

I would still be suggesting speakers as a starting point - but as in any modification every person has there preferences.

Good to hear some alternatives/preferences!