What about RRAP?

What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:41 am

RRAP does this:
"Retained and Resumeable Accessory Power". When you turn off the engine and take the key out you should be able to operate windows and radio and other accessory powered features in the car for a short while, right? At least until you open the driver's door. Subaru doesn't have this feature for my car either. RRAP does this and more. It has the timed Accessory power with door open cut-off as well. But also an option to hookup so unlocking the car by remote starts Accessory power without putting key in switch. You can also configure it to ignore the door opening and keep on supplying power so you can get it, close a forgotten window, and leave again without having to use the key. And a feature that when you press remote lock, it cuts Accessory power. Along with this kit comes a tip on how to cut and move one wire under the dash so that all windows will work when Accessory power is on, instead of having to depend on Ignition power being on - the factory default. I never did get the reason for that.



RRAP is very labour intensive for me and I cannot justify doing a group buy on the current design offering a discount.
I don't really even promote them anymore at full price either... kinda "hide" the order page.
It's like twist my arm and I'll make one.

However, I don't like holding back people from getting enjoyment out of RRAP, either.

Maybe I should just publish the existing design as open source and let people have at it themselves.
It is loosely based off a very commonly available timer kit (through-hole PCB and parts) but with some surface patch modifications for custom latching purposes. This comes with a huge caveat: You'd have to be comfortable with soldering of course, and need some heavy duty crimpers for relay sockets.. a couple heavy duty gauge 3M wire taps to attach to car... You don't want to cut corners on passing some potentially heavy ACC current through flimsy connections (meltdown potential).

If I were to continue enthusiastically with RRAP then it would be on a refreshed design to make it microcontroller based, then I wouldn't hate making them as much. Problem is I'm currently almost over my head fulfilling Tap Turn with its current success.
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby mynameisdaniel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:31 pm

I'd be interested in RRAP, assuming it could be wired up to activate a separate circuit instead of the accessories as I wouldn't want my computer starting up every time I unlock the doors :P

Perhaps you could put together a kit if some of the components are a bit hard to source? I'd be happy to assemble it myself with a diagram :)
User avatar
mynameisdaniel
 
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:47 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Car: 07 Subaru Liberty GT tbSTi Sedan
Real name: May or may not be Daniel
Profile URL: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15835

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby db1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:11 pm

I'm keen on RRAP. But it dsnt look like it'll be worth your while with the exsiting design. Are you likely to simplify the design any time soon?
scottmcphee wrote:I don't really even promote them anymore at full price either... kinda "hide" the order page.

I noticed that there was no mention of RRAP on your site. The only way I can get to the order page is via a link in legacygt.com can you post a link here?
db1
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:41 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Car: MY08 GTB
Real name: Don

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby HoFF » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:58 pm

I'd be keen on Rrap;)
User avatar
HoFF
-stickered-
 
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:39 am
Location: Southern Highlands NSW
Car: MY06 3RB Liberty Wagon 6MT MY09 Foz
Real name: Tom
Profile URL: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13577&start=255

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:57 am

mynameisdaniel wrote:I'd be interested in RRAP, assuming it could be wired up to activate a separate circuit instead of the accessories as I wouldn't want my computer starting up every time I unlock the doors :P

Perhaps you could put together a kit if some of the components are a bit hard to source? I'd be happy to assemble it myself with a diagram :)


RRAP is all about accessory power for the whole car.

I'm wondering if just a timed relay might be better for your needs?
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:58 am

db1 wrote:I'm keen on RRAP. But it dsnt look like it'll be worth your while with the exsiting design. Are you likely to simplify the design any time soon?
scottmcphee wrote:I don't really even promote them anymore at full price either... kinda "hide" the order page.

I noticed that there was no mention of RRAP on your site. The only way I can get to the order page is via a link in legacygt.com can you post a link here?


See, that's how low-key I am about that product.
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby DownUnder » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:49 am

If you ever open sourced the designs I'd be keen on trying it. Depending on the parts cost. Gotta use my expensive soldering iron for something :/
TOM

2004 MY04 2.5i Liberty Wagon (5MT)
User avatar
DownUnder
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:23 pm
Location: Adelaide, SA
Car: 2004 MY04 Liberty 2.5i Wagon Manual
Profile URL: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24070

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:32 am

DownUnder wrote:If you ever open sourced the designs I'd be keen on trying it. Depending on the parts cost. Gotta use my expensive soldering iron for something :/


RRAP is based on something very similar to this http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KA1732

In fact, it's based on this exact one http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/QK152

Then, I get out a razor and cut some traces on the PCB, set aside about half the parts, add some secret sauce, and let the :jester: fun begin!

Of course the relays that come with these kits are far to puny to carry decent current. You gotta add a decent 40/30 AMP or better relay and socket. This part effectively sets the upper bound on how much current you can safely use while the car is powered on RRAP.
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby lump_a_charcoal » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:59 am

scottmcphee wrote: continue enthusiastically with RRAP, make it microcontroller based


This has my vote!
Team White GenV GT Manual Wagon with fluffy dice

Mods (in order): Blacked out E-tag, drift spec fluffy dice, BC BR coilovers, strobe comfort flasher, de-badged tailgate + new GT badge, Prova Si knob, Tommy Kaira front grill + Gt badge, Cusco Strut brace (front), Prova blue mirrors, SSW Phoenix 20" black Stance SC-7 20" black, Nitto 35 series tyres, HKS filter, DAMD rear wing, Valenti smoked tail lights, LED rear reflectors, Headlights and others by Leo (hks180), Cusco rear sway bar, Full Invidia Q300 TBE, AVO TMIC, Summit Racing rear strut brace, KiDo Tune, front Cusco swaybar, upgraded LCA bushes, Valenti smoked centre tail light
Build thread here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22731
User avatar
lump_a_charcoal
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:36 pm
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Car: 2013 Land Rover Defender 110
Real name: Linc

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby mynameisdaniel » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:37 am

scottmcphee wrote:
mynameisdaniel wrote:I'd be interested in RRAP, assuming it could be wired up to activate a separate circuit instead of the accessories as I wouldn't want my computer starting up every time I unlock the doors :P

Perhaps you could put together a kit if some of the components are a bit hard to source? I'd be happy to assemble it myself with a diagram :)


RRAP is all about accessory power for the whole car.

I'm wondering if just a timed relay might be better for your needs?


Possibly, however I need a circuit that can be cut off when the car is locked as my car sits around for a while and I have a few parasitic current draws :(

Unfortunately I think that's a bit above my level as I don't know how I can toggle a relay using the car locking wires.

Got any installation instructions/diagrams to see if I could get RRAP to work for what I want?
User avatar
mynameisdaniel
 
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:47 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Car: 07 Subaru Liberty GT tbSTi Sedan
Real name: May or may not be Daniel
Profile URL: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15835

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:35 am

mynameisdaniel wrote:
Possibly, however I need a circuit that can be cut off when the car is locked as my car sits around for a while and I have a few parasitic current draws :(

Unfortunately I think that's a bit above my level as I don't know how I can toggle a relay using the car locking wires.

Got any installation instructions/diagrams to see if I could get RRAP to work for what I want?


It won't do for what you want. You need something different.

RRAP bridges battery to accessory line, and RRAP itself is powered off accessory line while it is doing its job of retaining power.
When RRAP powering is released (when any of these happen: time-out, open door, lock car) it effectively unplugs its own power source, and becomes a zero draw component while at rest. Beauty, eh? If you have the re-power with remote unlock feature connected, that pulse gives RRAP enough of a "jump-start" to latch up accessory power and thus re-powers itself again off the accessory juice it is now providing... (timer kicks in again, or any of the other kill conditions you have configured will kill it again). And the cycle of life continues.

Changing this to a microcontroller design means there would be a parasitic draw at all times, instead of zero power. But these days, microcontrollers require so little power it's not really a concern. My goal would be around 3mA at rest ("listening for an unlock signal").
Put this in perspective, you could run a module like this off a car battery for about 50 years without concern of drain, if it were the only thing drawing power, and you don't take into account battery self-draining. In other words, a moot point.
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby lump_a_charcoal » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:06 am

Great info Scott! You really know your stuff, and I can tell you have a love for electronics.

If you ever do get around to making some more, I would love one for my MY10 GenV. It is a frustration that my 07 Golf GTi is so much better equipped that my MY10 Liberty.

Also, thanks for spelling moot correctly!
Team White GenV GT Manual Wagon with fluffy dice

Mods (in order): Blacked out E-tag, drift spec fluffy dice, BC BR coilovers, strobe comfort flasher, de-badged tailgate + new GT badge, Prova Si knob, Tommy Kaira front grill + Gt badge, Cusco Strut brace (front), Prova blue mirrors, SSW Phoenix 20" black Stance SC-7 20" black, Nitto 35 series tyres, HKS filter, DAMD rear wing, Valenti smoked tail lights, LED rear reflectors, Headlights and others by Leo (hks180), Cusco rear sway bar, Full Invidia Q300 TBE, AVO TMIC, Summit Racing rear strut brace, KiDo Tune, front Cusco swaybar, upgraded LCA bushes, Valenti smoked centre tail light
Build thread here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22731
User avatar
lump_a_charcoal
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:36 pm
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Car: 2013 Land Rover Defender 110
Real name: Linc

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby Ric » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:14 am

scottmcphee wrote:...My goal would be around 3mA at rest ("listening for an unlock signal").
....

Why so high?
You can get a 250mA 5V regulator with 2.0 μA Quiescent Current, and small microcontrollers that sleep on less than 1 μA and run on tens of μA.
For that matter, you could still run on zero power, and take a "gulp" of current from the unlock pulse to get things going. :)
MY06 3.0RB 6MT Liberty Wagon. ---—▲≡≡≡

MGA-01 finally back on the track. 21-Jun-2015 at Sandown. Link
User avatar
Ric
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Melbourne
Car: MY06 3RB 6MT Wagon Pearl White
Real name: Ric
Profile URL: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12

Re: What about RRAP?

Postby scottmcphee » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:29 am

Ric - you're a microcontroller kind of guy, I'm pretty sure you could make your own RRAP! :D

I usually save the ultra low power concepts for portable / hand-held battery operated things, or for not-very-serviceable located devices where changing batteries is really inconvenient. Although it's possible to do μA designs with energy harvesting off current sources flying by... etc for cars, it's really not necessary.

Think of anything you'll power with ACC while it's being retained, like operate a window up/down, or finish a radio song for a minute... while the car is off battery not charging and using up a bit of capacity for your fun. The amount of energy drawn for that one event would probably satisfy keeping just the RRAP module happy for weeks of doing nothing other than listening for an input.

And every time you drive the car, you'll regain that battery capacity RRAP took to operate (since the last time you drove) in mere seconds, maybe less than one.
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

best timed delays

Postby scottmcphee » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:15 am

If you could have three choices for "the right amount of time" that Retained Accessory Power should last for, after turning off the car and removing the key, to keep accessories powered before it cuts out... how long would that be?

Keep in mind, power could also be cut by opening the driver's door. Or not. This is separately configurable.
Or power can also be cut by pressing LOCK on the remote. Or not. Again, separately configurable.

The reason I'm asking for 3, is because I would make it selectable at installation time. The idea being you could change the setting to one of the other time values, if for some reason your needs changed.

Depends on what kind of a user you are.

Here's one suggestion:
30 seconds, 2 minutes, 15 minutes

I suggest a lower bound of about 10 to 15 seconds, to be meaningful.
I suggest not allowing an unbounded upper limit, to protect against draining the battery with Accessory load in the event you choose not to hook up the door open cut-out and also the door locking cut-out.

What do you suggest?
scottmcphee
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:04 am
Location: Canada, eh.
Car: 2006 Legacy wagon 2.5i
Real name: Scott McPhee
Profile URL: http://www.autowindow.com/orderTAP.html

Next

Return to TapTurn

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest