6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

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6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:00 pm

BillyCorgi wrote:Hi there,

Does anyone out there have a DOA (dead on arrival) 6MT Centre Differential that they would like to discard and donate to science.
I am planning to import a 1 US-Gallon quantity of 100,000 cSt silicone fluid from the USA and investigate rebuilding the diff.
(I already have a standard 5MT Centre Diff disassembled and have worked out the technology and processes involved)

If available in Sydney I will collect.
The donor will get first dibs at a discounted future rebuild.
Please send me a PM.
Cheers!


The project kick-off
The donor dead differential was picked up from Hodman tonight.
(Thank you Hodman!)
Watch this space!
Last edited by BillyCorgi on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby PUDZ RSC3.0RB » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:13 am

Awesome work. Subscribed.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby HardwareBoB » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:40 am

Sounds interesting :)
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:53 am

Phase 1 - Pre Teardown Inspection

Okay. The first step is to see what we have got and compare it to previously understood technology.
The following photograph is comparing the 6MT C-D to the normal 5MT C-D
http://imgur.com/1yQjGLP
The 6MT C-D is on the left and the 5MT C-D is on the right.
No prizes for seeing the similarity in the design. They obviously come from the same supplier.

The next photograph is another angle.
http://imgur.com/CIj5Jwr
You can see the extended thrust-nose on the 6MT C-D.
While the end cover is similar design, the length of the nose protrusion differs.

The 5MT C-D unit has already been previously disassembled.
The last photograph is the stack of friction plates removed and cleaned from the 5MT C-D unit.
http://imgur.com/a7kENoE
This is what is expected to be found within the 6MT C-D unit

The sameness is expected to be enclosed in the 6MT C-D
The disassembly procedure that was learned during the 5MT C-D teardown can be followed with more precision to teardown the 6MT C-D unit.
Lots of sticky black gunk expected to be found inside. :(

At this stage, the project name could reasonably be shortened to "Centre Differential Rebuild Project", as the products, parts and process will essentially be the same!
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:46 am

Phase 2 - The Teardown

Rather uneventful really.
http://imgur.com/a/gMBqt
Probably because I had removed any fear (and excitement) by tearing down the 5MT C-D many months ago?

First step to remove the end cap.
I found that the circlip pliers did not open sufficiently far, so I had to resort to the old tried and tested pry and lift.
The circlip was removed easily (and successfully)

The next step was to use what tools I had at my disposal.
By grabbing the nose of the end cap in the lathe and using some gentle tapping with Mr Rubber Mallet, the body of the diff was able to be walked away from the end cap.

Once the two were separated, you can see the stack of friction plates immersed in silicone fluid and side gear of the differential.
Same as what was found in the 5MT C-D unit.

The colour of the silicon fluid is only just starting to go black and is still clear in places.
This diff is in betterer condition (as in binding sense) than the 5MT C-D unit I destroyed.
Hodman says that this diff had only just started to bind when hot and was mild. This is consistent on a sliding scale with the colour of the silicone fluid.

The next step will be to separate the stack of plates.
I will not do that yet, Will do later.
Referring back to the picture of the plates they have holes and slots in particular positions.
When separating these plates we need to find out if the plates are assembled randomly, or if there is a particular sequence of assembly to align the holes and slots is a particular fashion.

So, next episode, "carefully separate the plates"
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:46 pm

What Is Inside?

Okay, the working parts are shown here.
These are from the 5MT C-D, however will be the same for the 6MT C-D.
http://imgur.com/a/mMc5k

There are two sets of plates. There are the set plates that connect to the spline on the inner bub, with 38 internal teeth.
These are interleaved between the set of plates connected to the Differential Body, with inner spline, with 68 external teeth.

The inner hub is shown on the second photo in the sequence, the reverse is the side gear for one side of the differential.

The Differential body is shown on the third photo in the sequence.

In between the plates in the high viscosity silicone fluid.

When differential action is required, the two sets of plates must rotate at different speeds, and shear through the silicon fluid.
This creates the viscous coupling effect, limiting the slip of the differential.

The silicone fluid generates heat when the differential slips.
The heat produced (in Watts) is equivalent to the difference in rotational speeds of the plates (in radians per second) multiplied by the torque transmitted through the coupling (in Newton.metres)

The Centre Differentials fail when the silicone fluid becomes overheated. The fluid becomes too viscous, providing insufficient slip and causing the differential to bind.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby RX25SE » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:22 pm

post deleted
Last edited by RX25SE on Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:31 am

Phase 3 - Separating the Stack of Plates

http://imgur.com/a/tX5O7
The images uploaded out of sequence, so please bear with me.

The main purpose of separating the stack of friction plates ( apart from covering one self with sticky bad smelling silicone fluid) was to determine whether there was a particular stacking sequence for assembling the plates.
You can see from the 4th picture in sequence, that the inner splined plate has a notch in the outer edge at the 12 O'clock and 6 O'clock positions (the picture is rotated 90degrees)
Also, the outer splined plate has teeth missing also in the 12 O'clock and 6 O'clock positions.

The 3rd picture in sequence shows the raw stack.
If the outer splined plates were assembled in alignment, there would appear a missing tooth gap equispaced on the outer edge of the stack.
The missing tooth position was not aligned and a missing tooth "hole" was randomly spaced throughout the stack.
Conclusion: The outer splined plates are position (assembled) randomly in the stack.

The 5th picture in sequence shows the hub for the inner splined plates.
As the stack was disassembled, the inner plates were stacked back on the spline in the exact orientation that they were disassembled.
As each successive plate was placed back onto the hub, it was clear also that there was no pattern to the assembly orientation of the inner splined plates.

So, the present conclusion is that the plates are assembled in a random fashion.

The 1st, 5th & 6th picture show the spacer ring that RX25E alerted us to in his post.
These rings go between each outer splined plate, surrounding each inner splined plate, to help keep equally spaced gap separation between each plate.
Yes, these are the same as for the 5MT C-D unit, however I did not mention them earlier as they may have created information overload.

The 1st, 3rd & 4th picture shows a gear toothed type machining around the outer edge of the end cap.
This feature was no on the 5MT C-D unit end cap that I disassembled?
My guess is that the feature is there to help agitate the silicone fluid and help pump it around the inside of the viscous coupling. At least, that is my guess?

The next step is finish disassembling everything and cleaning all the black gunk from the internal components and the plates.
Last edited by BillyCorgi on Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:35 am

Phase 4 - Cleaning and Discussion

http://imgur.com/ageZ3sG
http://imgur.com/6EE0WbR

So now the viscous coupling components of the centre differential have been disassembled.
The plates section is identical to the 5MT C-D unit.
There are 13 Outer Splined Plates and there are 12 Inner Splined plates. There are also 12 wire rings to accompany the Inner Spline plates.
See the first image for all the parts laid out.
The side gear section (on the left) consists of three components.....
The Side Gear, the Outer Ring and the thrust plate.
The Side Gear rotates in the Diff Housing during differential action and there are two Quad-Ring (or X-Ring) seals that allow rotational motion and provide sealing.

The viscous pates and rings (in the centre) are as described above.

The End Cap and Bronze Thrust Plate are shown right of centre and the main centre differential body is shown on the right.

The second image shows the end cap shown from the other side.
The 6MT C-D is on the right.
It is shown against the end cap from the 5MT C-D unit.
The two steel balls that are staked into the end cap are shown.
These holes are assumed to allow the volume of silicone fluid to escape during assembly and then are seal shut.
On the 5MT end cap, these balls have been pushed out and the hole tapped out to M5 for tapered grub screws to be used for sealing after rebuild.

In total, there are four seals in the assembly.
There are the two Quad Rings to sela the rotation of the side gear, as describe above, plus two normal O-Ring seals for sealing the End Cap to the body and for sealing the Side Gear Outer Ring to the body.

What was found when cleaning all the components is that there was a sticky bituminous-like within the viscous coupling.
It is assumed that.....
(1) the viscous coupling failed by the quality of the silicone fluid going "off"
(2) the process of the silicone fluid going "off" transforms the fluid from the normal honey-like consistency to a tacky bituminous-like sludge that binds the plates together and binds up the viscous coupling
(3) apart from the Centre-Differential binding up, there is otherwise no mechanical damage to the centre differential unit.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am

Phase 5 - Let's get some replacement seals!

Now we need some help from someone out there in Liberty.asn.au forum land.
We have identified that two important seals for rotating shafts are Quad-Ring design.
The standard section sizes for quad ring are shown in the attached image.
http://imgur.com/HMLFLbW

The two quad rings in the Subaru Centre differentials measure C/S (cross-section) at about 3.9 to 4mm.
This does not appear to be a standard size and appears to be a metric special.

For the project to go ahead, a 3.9-4.0mm cross section quad ring for (a) 44mm inner diameter (shaft) and 76mm inner diameter (shaft) are required.
[Note, the two other standard O-rings should not be a bother]

So, do we have a bearing/seal expert out there in Subaru Liberty forum land to assist with procuring the requisite quad ring seals.
The alternative will be to approach Ludowici about making custom seals for the project, for which there will be a minimum charge and minimum order quantity.

Looking forward to hearing back from a suitably connected forum member.
Last edited by BillyCorgi on Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Get your Short Shift Adaptor viewtopic.php?f=68&t=30525
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:33 pm

Phase 6 - Seal Hunt!

Okay,
We have a reply back from Ludowici.
They can manufacture and supply a custom seal for special dimensions of the Centre differential.
The seals get lower cost per part the more that are ordered, however they are custom made.
(Notice I used the words "lower cost" and not "cheaper" - The custom seals will be a significant cost).

Presently, the costings are working out that a 6MT or 5MT Centre differential can be supplied on an exchange basis for about $350.00 plus shipping.
That would be Aussie Dollars and rebuilt with new fluid and new seals.

How many of you would take the rebuilt centre differential at this price point?
Last edited by BillyCorgi on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:25 pm

Phase 7 - Two Part Numbers of Spec B 6MT Centre Differentials - 38913AA112 & 38913AA200

The 6MT Liberties with the following transmission codes use 38913AA112 Centre Differential
TY856WVBAA - Liberty Spec B MY05
TY856WVCAA - Liberty Spec B MY06
TY856WVDBA - Liberty 3.0R Spec B MY07 (before #101029)
TY856WVDBD - Liberty 3.0R Spec B MY07-08 (from #101030)
However, the MY08-09 models use 38913AA200 Centre Differential. They have transmission code
TY856WBEAA

Then, there are 38913AA112 Centre Differential used in
TY856WVDAA - Liberty Spec B MY07 (before #101032)
TY856WVDAD - Liberty Spec B MY07 (from #101033)
Are these 2.5T models?

Presently, I do not know the difference between the earlier 38913AA112 Centre Differential and the 38913AA200 Centre Differential, however I am reasonably sure the donor unit from Hodman is a 38913AA112 Centre Differential unit as his was an earlier MY05 vehicle. Also, that is the part number on the box he gave me the donor differential unit in.
I have read posts where people have ordered centre differentials from overseas to have delivered the wrong unit? Is this the key between the 38913AA112 and 38913AA200?

Is it a case that the 3.0R units used the 38913AA112 unit and the 2.5T units used the 38913AA200?
Is anyone able to share their experiences with either part number?

This is all I can find from http://www.parts.subaru.com (USA) site
for 38913AA112
http://imgur.com/j1Aar9o
for 38913AA200
http://imgur.com/HEIUtd4
No other information except there was a change in part number.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby PUDZ RSC3.0RB » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:44 am

Pm sent. :)
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:11 pm

Phase 8 - Differential Reassembly

At this point I am planning to reassemble the 5MT differential with the new 100,000 cSt silicone fluid and have it tested.
There are articles of MRT testing Subaru viscous centre differentials (torque produced at 100rpm) which does ot appear too technically taxing.
However, do you think that I can refind the link? The post will be edited with the link once it is refound.
Here it is - http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.ht ... s&A=108266

The plan is to trail rebuild the diff and test it. If this does not go well, all that is lost is the silicone fluid that will be wasted.
Hopefully a donor 5MT car requiring a new centre viscous coupling will come forward and make itself available to use the diff?

Anyway, keep and eye on this space as images of the assembly begin to get posted over the coming days.
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Re: 6MT Centre Differential Rebuild Project

Postby BillyCorgi » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:06 pm

Phase 8 Part 2 - Trial Differential Reassembly

There has been discussion on the forum about the fill percentage of the reassembled Viscous Coupling.
So, I have been doing some research.
Various items are published saying that the couplings have an air space left within the coupling.

Here is a site that suggests that the fill percentage is about 90%
http://vw-kern.at/visco_en.php
The paper talks about Viscose-mode: and talks about Hump-mode:
In Hump Mode, the heating silicone fluid expands to occupy the complete fill space within the coupling, the air space dissolves into the silicone fluid and the friction between the plates increase leading to a momentary rapid increase in transmitted torque. Effectively, the coupling achieves a near "lock-up" state.

The paper also suggests that the viscous coupling discussed in the paper fails by "extreme hardening" or coupling lock (my words) which is initiated by gear oil being sucked into the coupling.
Again my words, but maintaining and air gap volume within the coupling would help to provide a buffer against a hydraulic lock leading to gear oil sucking.

Here is another link to another paper.
http://www.2carpros.com/questions/2002- ... -heated-up.
Here is another that talks about the air dissolving in the silicone fluid during "Hump-mode"
http://www.rsgear.com/articles/1992_06.pdf

What is going to be done with this information?
Well, I have both a 5MT and 6MT centre differential torn down. It has been established that the viscous coupling side is essentially the same.
The 5MT centre diff will be reassembled essentially dry, and the internals flooded with either water or kerosene (or some other suitable fluid) and then the fluid drained to determine its internal flooded volume.
Then, hopefully, a volume or mass of silicone fluid can be calculated for the reassembly process.

By the way, there are posts on American websites discussing 5MT centre differential failures due to what was described as circlip failures, but essentially it was the viscous coupling's end cap of the differential bursting open from excessive expansion of the silicone fluid. So, an air gap is indeed important to prevent oil sucking and bursting open.
For reference
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=2432712
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1249894
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