5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox...

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5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox...

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:38 pm

So we all know from the US forums that the 5EAT gearbox is not quite as strong as it should be, with boxes slipping on spool and resulting the transmission grabbing after peak engine torque occurs. Being an electronic device, it can function quite well when fed the right signals though!

The Auto Transmission is controlled by the engine ECU, with the transmission computer being fed the right signals from the accelerator pedal via a Requested Torque value

This is the Target Boost Table which is probably the most crucial element
5EAT_Target_Boost.png
5EAT_Target_Boost.png (86.34 KiB) Viewed 25623 times

Factory on the Left, middle shows a Tuned car and the right hand side is one of mine

The major difference you will notice is that the middle graph has essentially added boost from 2400rpm to 5200rpm in the 310+ Requested Torque Columns which makes boost come on both earlier on the accelerator pedal movement but also at a low rpm, with the tune then having a smaller boost increase above 5200rpm. The fueling and timing was then tuned to allow the engine to make more engine torque... unfortunately, the Transmission has no way of knowing your making more... so the result is that above 2400rpm, the transmission is not applying enough line pressure to account for a specific engine torque increase so keeps the same line pressure, not to mention leaner mixtures means that your making more torque so it allows the transmission to slip. Once peak torque occurs though, the transmission is able to take the stored energy and bump up the peak power output as the transmission catches up.

So how is the 5EAT 'fixed' if you want more power... you will notice at 2400rpm and 310 Requested Torque, the stock tune asks for 11.2psi, the dyno tuned car asks for 13.79psi but in my tune I am asking for 6.5psi boost :shock: Reasoning is, that with optimised fuel and timing, the engine made similar torque to stock so epects the equivalent transmission line pressure despite less boost. I actually have 20% more line pressure being request with a value of 420 to get similar boost values, which is where the transmission is able to maintain gear ratio lock up ;)
To put this into perspective, the Automatic MY10+ Liberty GT has a Target Boost 350 column requesting a peak of 12.38psi boost but the accelerator pedal asks for a value of 390 to let the transmission lock up better(Subaru had learnt a thing or two by then although it is not perfect!)

The give away signs of transmission slip(and pending gearbox rebuild) is engine rpm being higher at a specific road speed than it should be. If you are doing 2000rpm in 3rd at 50kph, 3000rpm at 75kph, 4000rpm at 100kph and 6000rpm at 150kph, then the car should be relatively issue free. With a turbo upgrade, the transmission slip is usually more obvious and results in higher peak power figures after peak torque but also higher rpm values at low road speeds than a stock turbo.

Dyno Dynamics are by far the worst offender, as they use either engine rpm or roller speed, with no overlay of the two values to ensure there is no transmission slip as per this article: http://www.airboytuning.com/archives/138 which also shows how derived dyno engine torque is artificially bumped up on any dyno if there is transmission slip.
I know of 3 tuned 5EAT's that had/needed rebuilds within a year of the tune. One was instantly aware of the issue when he knew he could tow a small camper caravan pre-tune at low rpm sitting on 80kph but was sitting above 4000rpm in 4th gear post-tune the weekend after the tune... after the gearbox was replaced, I was asked to retune the car and the difference was immediate ;) It made less power on the same dyno but with more low rpm torque reaching the wheels so was consistently a full second quicker to 100kph than its previous tune. This also allows the gearbox to shift smoother but also kickdown into the right gear as it knows how much torque to expect from the car ;)

Of course, this also applies to the H6 5EAT and even the 2.5L 4EAT's, albeit the 4EAT is a bit more resilient! I am currently retuning a Raptor Supercharged 4EAT 2.5i Liberty which only has a DBW fix applied... no more transmission slip and we even raised the transmission shift point!
This can also be shown in Mark's Veloci build thread, where just the initial DBW settings provided to Mark to sample the difference made a massive improvement to driveability and transmission line pressure lockup resulting in firmer, positive shifts by having more Requested Torque at lower throttle angles.
KiDo Racing Tunes Info: HERE

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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby <GB> » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:26 am

Why all the sudden are you posting this? isnt this a trade secret?are there any hidden tables too?
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby Billsy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:09 pm

why should posting helpful information to save people thousands of dollars and heartache be a trade secret.


Keep up the good work matt!
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby jakey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:38 pm

So much information my head hurty...

But your heat map looks smooth :angel:
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby <GB> » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:48 pm

Billsy wrote:why should posting helpful information to save people thousands of dollars and heartache be a trade secret.


Keep up the good work matt!

well it was a trade secret up till he posted this thread
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:43 pm

<GB> wrote:Why all the sudden are you posting this? isnt this a trade secret?are there any hidden tables too?


Because of the 5EAT RomRaider thread... said I would atleast post something for public consumption and this was posted to see if I needed to clarify anything for noobs etc

No hidden or undefined tables to get the auto running right if you know what your doing.

Lets face it, there is aa reason kits like this exist: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... 70503.html

The prompting was a 5EAT MY11 STI Impreza owner having to get shafted by Subaru for a new genuine box after getting a tune elsewhere since the late model gearbox is too rare for secondhand/wreckers.
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby Robbks » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:51 am

Billsy wrote:why should posting helpful information to save people thousands of dollars and heartache be a trade secret.


Quote for truth Bills!
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby jslayz » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:23 am

Interesting!
Thanks Matt.
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby alexeiwoody » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:31 pm

Hey matt, we've multiplied the RT by 1.2 across the board, but the gear changes are still sluggish just like they always were, ideas?
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby dr20t » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:20 pm

alexeiwoody wrote:Hey matt, we've multiplied the RT by 1.2 across the board, but the gear changes are still sluggish just like they always were, ideas?


Tables a or b or both?
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby JMlegacy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:37 pm

Good info. But i'm a bit dumb on this so I might have to read it again. I notice his values look more like boost (psi)
THe values in my tables go up to 100, like 100%. OR is this for 2010 LGT?
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby alexeiwoody » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:48 pm

Hey mick, not too sure, happy to email you the tune. It's definitely harder on the lock up, but so far I think it just makes things rougher rather than put more power down or anything useful. Might test the 1.3 times requested torque and then return to stock. Can someone check this tune and see if we're doing it right? Matt? :)
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:30 pm

JMlegacy wrote:Good info. But i'm a bit dumb on this so I might have to read it again. I notice his values look more like boost (psi)
THe values in my tables go up to 100, like 100%. OR is this for 2010 LGT?


This is aimed at 07+

04 to 06 are different ECU logic but it can be achieved.

alexeiwoody wrote:Hey mick, not too sure, happy to email you the tune. It's definitely harder on the lock up, but so far I think it just makes things rougher rather than put more power down or anything useful. Might test the 1.3 times requested torque and then return to stock. Can someone check this tune and see if we're doing it right? Matt? :)


Just multiplying the whole Acc table does not work, you are moving the whole throttle table then ;) Use the MY10+ LGT DBW as a guide since the values are much closer to right
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby alexeiwoody » Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:00 am

Thanks, will try :)
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Re: 5EAT Tuning and how not to end up with a farked gearbox.

Postby JMlegacy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:59 am

KiDo_Tuning wrote:This is aimed at 07+

04 to 06 are different ECU logic but it can be achieved.


How would we achieve this? I'm all ears
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