The E85 Thread

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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby realrift » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:53 pm

Hi Guys,

I was wondering if a flex fuel E85 tune would work for an MY10 Liberty GT Auto?

Do you need an ethanol content sensor?

Does it work with the stock ECU?

Cheers,
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby kiwigene » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:06 pm

I've never had any significant issues with cold starts. Only now, since the overnight temps are getting below 10°C, is there sometimes a slight hesitation after cranking. But seriously, it's a single crank and the engine starts immediately. I just wait for the fuel pump to prime and that's it. Even after the car sat for 3 weeks at the airport, 8°C in the morning, it started up just like normal. I'm surprised you have any issues at your temperatures Tom.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby kiwigene » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:08 pm

realrift wrote:Hi Guys,

I was wondering if a flex fuel E85 tune would work for an MY10 Liberty GT Auto?

Do you need an ethanol content sensor?

Does it work with the stock ECU?

Cheers,
Rift.


Talk to Matt (KiDo_Tuning) in this thread - he can help you out. You need a tune, that is all.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby tom_kauf » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:53 pm

kiwigene wrote:I've never had any significant issues with cold starts. Only now, since the overnight temps are getting below 10°C, is there sometimes a slight hesitation after cranking. But seriously, it's a single crank and the engine starts immediately. I just wait for the fuel pump to prime and that's it. Even after the car sat for 3 weeks at the airport, 8°C in the morning, it started up just like normal. I'm surprised you have any issues at your temperatures Tom.

Hmm, interesting. Are you running Matt's Flex Tune? And I assume larger aftermarket fuel pump? (I have a Deatschwerks DW300c).
I have kept a spreadsheet of my various cold starts. Only the time since shut down made a difference (8h was still ok with 3 cranks, 12h always meant 6 cranks).
Even 3 primes of the pump made no difference. And temperature ranges of 17-24deg had no effect.

Matt's link to those Anti-drain-back Valve parts look interesting! I might get those.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby bigBADbenny » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:14 pm

kiwigene wrote:Just ran from Traralgon through Melbourne (maybe 50kms at urban speeds) to Albury with E85 from United. On the freeway was doing between 100 and 102 or 110 and 113 where permitted. 4 up in the car with a weeks worth of luggage. Averaged 11.4 l/100km. Filled up with ~55 litres BP ultimate 98 and was doing between 110 and 115 for a little over 500km. Averaged 8.6 l/100km. Thank you Matt for "virtual" flex fuel!


It's been a while since I've been in contact with Matt... He's got VFFT for the my07 GT spec B 2.5l ???
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby kiwigene » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:27 pm

tom_kauf wrote:
kiwigene wrote:I've never had any significant issues with cold starts. Only now, since the overnight temps are getting below 10°C, is there sometimes a slight hesitation after cranking. But seriously, it's a single crank and the engine starts immediately. I just wait for the fuel pump to prime and that's it. Even after the car sat for 3 weeks at the airport, 8°C in the morning, it started up just like normal. I'm surprised you have any issues at your temperatures Tom.

Hmm, interesting. Are you running Matt's Flex Tune? And I assume larger aftermarket fuel pump? (I have a Deatschwerks DW300c).
I have kept a spreadsheet of my various cold starts. Only the time since shut down made a difference (8h was still ok with 3 cranks, 12h always meant 6 cranks).
Even 3 primes of the pump made no difference. And temperature ranges of 17-24deg had no effect.

Matt's link to those Anti-drain-back Valve parts look interesting! I might get those.


Originally had one of the those dodgy PSI fuel pumps but changed to a DW65c to be "safe". Cranking was the same - and even had a couple of re-tunes too, since originally going to E85, and haven't noticed any change.
Could be spark plug related? Mine are just the standard ones though. How old is your battery? Otherwise, could be fuel. Caltex "bio-eflex" can change the ethanol ratio between summer and winter (apparently).
But then again, I would have thought at your temperature it shouldn't make a difference. Maybe it's just the vagaries of different vehicles?
Last edited by kiwigene on Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby kiwigene » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:37 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:
kiwigene wrote:Just ran from Traralgon through Melbourne (maybe 50kms at urban speeds) to Albury with E85 from United. On the freeway was doing between 100 and 102 or 110 and 113 where permitted. 4 up in the car with a weeks worth of luggage. Averaged 11.4 l/100km. Filled up with ~55 litres BP ultimate 98 and was doing between 110 and 115 for a little over 500km. Averaged 8.6 l/100km. Thank you Matt for "virtual" flex fuel!


It's been a while since I've been in contact with Matt... He's got VFFT for the my07 GT spec B 2.5l ???


Yes (sort of). It's just Matt's "E85" tune, but allows for variances in the ethanol ratio. It's not "perfect" since I have the auto (I think the manual handles the flex fueling better).
So it works great on Caltex bio-eflex fuel (always averaging less than 13l/100km for a whole tank in combined driving).
And as you can see it was ok when having to fill up on P98, but I didn't really do any WOT as I was just cruising along the highway and did notice a bit of hesitation* when under load (was possibly running rich).
* was still running the PSI fuel pump back then - so that might have been the cause of the hesitation issues.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby tom_kauf » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:46 pm

Thanks for the info Kiwigene. Maybe yours is the straight E85 tune (not full 98 capable like the Flex Tune)?
I have stock Spark Plugs as well. But the battery is at least 3 years old (maybe older if the previous owner had it long before I bought the car). So that's been on my list to replace for a while.
And you're right, we don't have E-flex up here because it doesn't really get cold lol (and United is the only E85 supplier anyway).

On the 98 tune my car always started after 3 cranks. But that was with the stock fuel pump.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby bigBADbenny » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:45 pm

Nice one, I'll have to shoot him a msg and see how far off VFFT really is, as I've mentioned, the logic is in my tune, it just needs to be scaled and activated, which is meant to be quite involved and perhaps mod specific...
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby alexeiwoody » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:50 pm

tom_kauf wrote:
Matt's link to those Anti-drain-back Valve parts look interesting! I might get those.


Don't waste your money or time.

Read that link Matt posted. We proved him wrong a long time ago in that very thread, with an email from DW explaining there are valves in place (obviously), and videos of a DW65 in action, working exactly as supposed to, and not like Matt described.

Just to recap:

1. No need for double o rings on pump
2. No need for extra anti drain valves
3. Just make sure the pump is installed correctly
4. Most of the cold start issues are in the tune. A lot of Matt's customers seem to have issues with the cold start. Maybe the stock injectors contribute, or more likely the cold fueling tables are slightly off.

After being tuned by MSR, my lib started on e85 like it does on 98. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Cold, warm etc.

I'm sure we'll get a response from Matt about how he gets various cars (as always - it's not anyone we know...) to start on half a crank, but we've been through this over and over - there is absolutely no need to make up stories of faulty pumps or lacking drain valves.

Increase the fuel during start first, and see what happens. Tuning is not always a magic bullet, but in this instance - it's 99% the cause. Hopefully you get it fixed instead of getting more excuses.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby tom_kauf » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:03 pm

Cheers Alexei, I'll read that link some more. I only skimmed it earlier.

And thanks for the other info 8)
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby dr20t » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:08 pm

Mine starts pretty quickly although when below 10 degrees it takes a couple of goes

Can I ask what people's concerns are with needing to crank multiple times to start?
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby tom_kauf » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:44 pm

I was just curious what other people's cars were like on 'cold' starts, because of my recent E85 tune. I knew E85 cold starts were more of an issue down south, but North QLD winter nights are barely under 20deg.

While waiting 6 cranks for the engine to start (or using the technique mentioned above) is not a problem, it's just not as nice to start as the car was on 98. It's still worth running E85 for me though.
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:25 pm

alexeiwoody wrote:
tom_kauf wrote:
Matt's link to those Anti-drain-back Valve parts look interesting! I might get those.


Don't waste your money or time.

Read that link Matt posted. We proved him wrong a long time ago in that very thread, with an email from DW explaining there are valves in place (obviously), and videos of a DW65 in action, working exactly as supposed to, and not like Matt described.

Just to recap:

1. No need for double o rings on pump
2. No need for extra anti drain valves
3. Just make sure the pump is installed correctly
4. Most of the cold start issues are in the tune. A lot of Matt's customers seem to have issues with the cold start. Maybe the stock injectors contribute, or more likely the cold fueling tables are slightly off.

After being tuned by MSR, my lib started on e85 like it does on 98. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Cold, warm etc.

I'm sure we'll get a response from Matt about how he gets various cars (as always - it's not anyone we know...) to start on half a crank, but we've been through this over and over - there is absolutely no need to make up stories of faulty pumps or lacking drain valves.

Increase the fuel during start first, and see what happens. Tuning is not always a magic bullet, but in this instance - it's 99% the cause. Hopefully you get it fixed instead of getting more excuses.


Archie01 sitting here right now at Sharpies house. Fuel pressure gauge drops from 45psi to 0psi when fuel pump is primed but not started. Amprok same thing. Grants Supercharged H6 same thing.

Weird how when it is fitted they don't lose pressure and car starts.

Want to see a video, happy to link it on FB now
Weird that so many workshops always now double O ring... must of learnt something at some point
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Re: The E85 Thread

Postby alexeiwoody » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:45 pm

It's - Must have*. In a sentence it would look like this "Someone who claimed to have multiple engineering degrees, but could not use correct English grammar, must have been lying" or "A certain tuner was caught out telling fibs many times, but just could not stop telling fibs. He must have been a compulsive liar".

And no, double o-ringing is arguably more dangerous, than single, and not at all necessary in a correct (BIG emphasis on the "correct", since majority of your troubled customers clearly should not be DIYing a fuel pump, as we've seen people installing o-rings on the wrong side of the pump...) installation of the pump.

Thank you for linking multiple videos on Facebook and tagging me. It proves absolutely nothing, and I am now 100% convinced you're insane, and have a terrible memory to boot (we've covered all this before 2 years ago).

We've all seen these exact symptoms in multiple cars. Yes the fuel pressure was leaking out. No, it had nothing to do with a drain back valve and it had nothing to do with "E85 cold starts". How you relate a cold start issue in one car with a completely different car that's not holding fuel pressure at any time, hot or cold....

It's not normal dude. It's not rational thought. It's the behaviour of a child who wants to be correct so badly, he ignores facts. People trust you with their engines, and that's scary.
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