club.liberty.asn.au

does it "feel" like it's pulling timing back excessively.
i.e non-linear/ jerky or hesitant as it pulls through those rpm/ load areas?

I sincerely doubt it's either of those issues - it's an MSR modified and tuned car from stock.

Wastegate chatter or turbo surge would have been corrected prior to finalising the tune. Same as wastegate duty, boostspikes, boost leaks, popping, running rich/lean etc etc - all signs of a badly tuned or simply untuned car. It wouldn't start doing those things after a month of running well. Seriously

Without an LV we're just guessing here and although people are trying to be helpful, they are giving you very random and improbable possibilities.

If the engine was really knocking - the drive would be affected and the car would be noticeably different/awkward to drive, as rob said

Have you checked the vacuum lines?

its probably an exhaust rattle

alexeiwoody wrote:I sincerely doubt it's either of those issues - it's an MSR modified and tuned car from stock.

Wastegate chatter or turbo surge would have been corrected prior to finalising the tune. Same as wastegate duty, boostspikes, boost leaks, popping, running rich/lean etc etc - all signs of a badly tuned or simply untuned car. It wouldn't start doing those things after a month of running well. Seriously

How much time does MSR spend with these cars on the road, putting around at light to medium throttle, without all the background noise of the dyno room and workshop to hear a small chatter...?
fu(k all I bet. A quick dash around the block to make sure the return to idle and AC cut in works ok is most likely about it.

And the other point you seem to fail to realise is that you don't always pick up these slight sounds and issues immediately.
he may have been boosting the crap out of the car for the last month just loving the noise and power from the tune.
And now the novelty has worn off, he's driving in a more day to day manner and using much different areas of the mapping and airflow characteristics of the engine.
From my own experience with both of these issues on my own cars, you don;t notice them all the time, it only happens at a specific rpm range with specific loading on the engine and specific throttle opening.
even how loud you have the stereo will determine if you can actually hear it or not.

most of you blokes rely so much on what the laptop is telling you that you forget there's lots of mechanical parts in there.

It couldn't just be a pipe come off Surely MSR would have checked every single one and if it looked loose he'd have replaced it and used brand new T-Clamps on a vacuum line.......

alexeiwoody wrote:I sincerely doubt it's either of those issues - it's an MSR modified and tuned car from stock.

Wastegate chatter or turbo surge would have been corrected prior to finalising the tune. Same as wastegate duty, boostspikes, boost leaks, popping, running rich/lean etc etc - all signs of a badly tuned or simply untuned car. It wouldn't start doing those things after a month of running well. Seriously

Without an LV we're just guessing here and although people are trying to be helpful, they are giving you very random and improbable possibilities.

If the engine was really knocking - the drive would be affected and the car would be noticeably different/awkward to drive, as rob said

Have you checked the vacuum lines?

I havent looked under the hood for a solution yet.. I dont know my ass from my elbow in an engine bay so other than looking for loose hoses i really need an expert.

The car doesnt seem to be running poorly... So its probably just a rattle or vibration.

Youre right that we're just stabbing in the dark here, but youd be amazed how many possible causes you can discount just by people throwing out suggestions.

Robbks wrote:And the other point you seem to fail to realise is that you don't always pick up these slight sounds and issues immediately.
he may have been boosting the crap out of the car for the last month just loving the noise and power from the tune.
And now the novelty has worn off, he's driving in a more day to day manner and using much different areas of the mapping and airflow characteristics of the engine.
From my own experience with both of these issues on my own cars, you don;t notice them all the time, it only happens at a specific rpm range with specific loading on the engine and specific throttle opening.
even how loud you have the stereo will determine if you can actually hear it or not.

most of you blokes rely so much on what the laptop is telling you that you forget there's lots of mechanical parts in there.

It couldn't just be a pipe come off Surely MSR would have checked every single one and if it looked loose he'd have replaced it and used brand new T-Clamps on a vacuum line.......

I didnt see him checking all the vaccuum lines, but im confident he did as i wasnt watching him all that closely. I was busy playing with his dog.

It wont be something to do with the tune.. MSR is famous for tuning subarus.. He would be on top of things like pinging.

Robbks wrote:How much time does MSR spend with these cars on the road, putting around at light to medium throttle

I can only answer this from my experience at MSR. Note I've been told I'm a "really fussy fucker" so perhaps a little more was done to keep me happy.

Following the tune, Michael took me for a drive around the hills of Gosford where he drove it normally initially which would be part throttle. He then drove it very hard, harder than I'll ever drive it. He's a very good driver.

The car was logged during this time, approximately 10 mins.

We then returned to the workshop, and I then drove it just to see what I thought of the DBW and feel of the car. Again he had it logging in the passenger seat. This was about 5 mins approximately.

Upon return he then showed me the AVCS issues in the log, confirmed no FLKC and FBKC was present in the logs, showed me a Learning View that was clean, had a chat about what I could do to improve it's performance, such as insulating my Cobb box to further reduce IAT, cam gear fix etc.

He then explained the graph and the tune. There was a bit of heatsoak and his tune compensates 3% at 50 degrees IAT. Mine was constantly loggin 58 degrees. He explained he'd added a bit more safety due to the 1100km distance from my place to his so the final figure was a bit lower than his norm. He suggested on the road it would be better than the dyno due to cooler air and more of it at speed.

Overall I came away feeling very confident in what he'd done.

Since the replacement of the OCVs and AVCS cam gear and timing belt service I've also logged my car and submitted them to MSR and he's provided a revision for me with minute changes based on the new parts now doing their job.

What Adam is hearing at that RPM sounds a lot like the turbo heatshield rattle which would have been touched during the dump pipe install. These have known to rattle if the bolts loosen up and the clearance is tight. Either way he's off to MSR on Saturday and all will be revealed.

Adam, maybe get him to do what he did with my car, and leave feeling confident all your concerns are addressed. Get the rev limiter issue looked at too.

bass_straitener wrote:

Robbks wrote:How much time does MSR spend with these cars on the road, putting around at light to medium throttle

I can only answer this from my experience at MSR. Note I've been told I'm a "really fussy fucker" so perhaps a little more was done to keep me happy.

Following the tune, Michael took me for a drive around the hills of Gosford where he drove it normally initially which would be part throttle. He then drove it very hard, harder than I'll ever drive it. He's a very good driver.

The car was logged during this time, approximately 10 mins.

We then returned to the workshop, and I then drove it just to see what I thought of the DBW and feel of the car. Again he had it logging in the passenger seat. This was about 5 mins approximately.

Upon return he then showed me the AVCS issues in the log, confirmed no FLKC and FBKC was present in the logs, showed me a Learning View that was clean, had a chat about what I could do to improve it's performance, such as insulating my Cobb box to further reduce IAT, cam gear fix etc.

He then explained the graph and the tune. There was a bit of heatsoak and his tune compensates 3% at 50 degrees IAT. Mine was constantly loggin 58 degrees. He explained he'd added a bit more safety due to the 1100km distance from my place to his so the final figure was a bit lower than his norm. He suggested on the road it would be better than the dyno due to cooler air and more of it at speed.

Overall I came away feeling very confident in what he'd done.

Since the replacement of the OCVs and AVCS cam gear and timing belt service I've also logged my car and submitted them to MSR and he's provided a revision for me with minute changes based on the new parts now doing their job.

What Adam is hearing at that RPM sounds a lot like the turbo heatshield rattle which would have been touched during the dump pipe install. These have known to rattle if the bolts loosen up and the clearance is tight. Either way he's off to MSR on Saturday and all will be revealed.

Adam, maybe get him to do what he did with my car, and leave feeling confident all your concerns are addressed. Get the rev limiter issue looked at too.

Yeah im confident MSR does an excellent job and have no doubts about his tune. I wasnt in the car when he took it for the test drive but i can only imagine he did what he did with your car by the sounds of it.

Its a tricky thng as pinging sounds like a rattle of metallic parts so its so hard for me to tell if its mechanical, tune related or simply just a rattling part like a heat shield.

I will definitely get him to look at the rev limiter issue.. thanks for reminding me!!

Robbks wrote:How much time does MSR spend with these cars on the road, putting around at light to medium throttle, without all the background noise of the dyno room and workshop to hear a small chatter...?
fu(k all I bet. A quick dash around the block to make sure the return to idle and AC cut in works ok is most likely about it.

And the other point you seem to fail to realise is that you don't always pick up these slight sounds and issues immediately.
he may have been boosting the crap out of the car for the last month just loving the noise and power from the tune.
And now the novelty has worn off, he's driving in a more day to day manner and using much different areas of the mapping and airflow characteristics of the engine.

most of you blokes rely so much on what the laptop is telling you that you forget there's lots of mechanical parts in there.

It couldn't just be a pipe come off Surely MSR would have checked every single one and if it looked loose he'd have replaced it and used brand new T-Clamps on a vacuum line.......

I love how freely you comment on mick's work and ethics, considering you've never worked with him

Vac lines can come off anytime, anywhere for whatever reason. A lot more common than MSR tuned cars having compressor surge - something even bad noodle's beginners guide to tuning explains. Maybe we should wait for an update instead of throwing more guesses out there

And as for relying on laptops and not checking mechanical parts - as someone in a beer thread on here once said: "The worst kind of people are those who make assumptions and comment about others' situation without having any idea"

I don't think anyone here even mentioned laptop fixes except for you? Ie constant references to a bad tune

You've also forgot to ask if the OP's car has recently been crashed into?

I think you're just getting angry now

On a serious note though - I wonder what it will turn out to be...at those rpms it can't be anything too major (one would hope)

If the car has audible pinging and the tune is up to scratch iam would drop so much that it would feel different to drive and reall should have stopped the pinging, it should be at 0 by now. most pinging that the ecu picks up on you cant hear unless you got knock ears. im going to say its mechanical or exhaust loose

<GB> wrote:If the car has audible pinging and the tune is up to scratch iam would drop so much that it would feel different to drive and reall should have stopped the pinging, it should be at 0 by now. most pinging that the ecu picks up on you cant hear unless you got knock ears. im going to say its mechanical or exhaust loose

Well, i think you might be right. I just took my mate for a drive at lunch.. he's got an evo and is one of the most knowledgeable car guys i know. He's telling me thats its definitely not a knock/ping. He even gave me a 100% on his diagnosis. He doesnt know what it is however as he didnt lift the hood. But its slightly more reassuring to know it may not be internal... i wont say its definitely not internal just in case hes wrong haha

peadya100 wrote:

<GB> wrote:If the car has audible pinging and the tune is up to scratch iam would drop so much that it would feel different to drive and reall should have stopped the pinging, it should be at 0 by now. most pinging that the ecu picks up on you cant hear unless you got knock ears. im going to say its mechanical or exhaust loose

Well, i think you might be right. I just took my mate for a drive at lunch.. he's got an evo and is one of the most knowledgeable car guys i know. He's telling me thats its definitely not a knock/ping. He even gave me a 100% on his diagnosis. He doesnt know what it is however as he didnt lift the hood. But its slightly more reassuring to know it may not be internal... i wont say its definitely not internal just in case hes wrong haha

Piston knock or detonation, aka knock, can't usually be heard...if you can hear it....your car is about to blow up and would certainly not drive properly

Good to hear him confirming the diagnosis of "not so serious"

alexeiwoody wrote:I don't think anyone here even mentioned laptop fixes except for you? Ie constant references to a bad tune

ummmm

alexeiwoody wrote:Without an LV we're just guessing here......

I never said anything about the tune being bad. I know he does good tunes, seen plenty of them and have no problems with his work ethic.
the fact is without a lot of time on the road (read hours, not 20-30 minutes), you can't simulate every possible driving scanario. But experience, R&D, and good results in the past get you to 99%.

This comes from actually tuning my own cars
You can think you've got the tune nailed 100%, but you drive somewhere different, that uses a seldom used part of the map, or drive in a different gear than you normally would, and car reacts out of the ordinary.

Not getting angry at anyone.
But you've got some relationship or thoughts about Mick being totally infallible and it just makes you appear ignorant.

As has been said above, could just be a rattling heat shield.
[insert sarcasm] But wouldn't he have tightened the bolts up properly after the dump install?
I mean, cars from the factory don't have rattling heat shields after a month!
Surely if Mick worked on it, there's no way it would come loose [/sarcasm]

maybe there is a rattle snake under the bonnet!!

<GB> wrote:maybe there is a rattle snake under the bonnet!!

not as silly as it sounds..
My uncle had an old Hilux that was hard to start one day.
thought nothing of it, few days later there was a funny smell from under the bonnet
A snake had curled up in the fan shroud next to the radiator, chopped him to bits when it started!