Phat GT dump pipe vs MSR dump pipe

[spec.B]

Hi guys,

Got a 2008 Lib with 2.5 turbo and 6 speed manual, looking to start some mods, at this stage some combination of exhaust and an MSR tune. I'm want to chase some power gains but keep the exhaust pretty quiet, absolutely no drone, don't mind a bit (a lot) of noise under high loads, but nothing intrusive for day to day driving.

Can anyone please provide some input on the following:

1. Stainless vs mild steel. I don't believe longevity will be an issue, and would prefer the deeper sound of mild anyway.
2. MSR dump vs Phat GT dump. Phat GT's is mild/ceramic, includes a cat, and seems to be a good design. MSR doesn't seem to specify the brand or price, but images show a bellmouth housing style including a splitter. Does anyone know of the brand? I've heard xforce thrown around. Can anyone clarify if there is a significant performance difference between the two? Is the Phat GT dump worth the extra money?
3. How difficult is dump pipe fitment? Will I require car stands to fit it myself? It looks a little fiddly around the rear of the turbo but doesn't seem impossible.
4. Is it worth upgrading the rest of the exhaust from the dump to the rear mufflers? Don't mind spending a bit to get a gain but don't want to do it just for the sake of consistency.
5. Anyone got good advice on quiet rear mufflers with quad (2x dual) tips? Again, I hear xforce might be applicable. Are the stock mufflers excessively restrictive?
6. Anyone got estimate of power figures with dump pipe alone, dump pipe + piping to mufflers, full turbo back options? All including a tune.


Thanks for any/all of the insight that can be provided.

[Kekotic]

1. PHAT's is ceramic coated so the longevity doesn't matter.
2. nfi.
3. You can't do it unless you can get under the car...
4. yes
5. Xforce systems are prone to drone ( ) so I would steer clear of their centre pipes and mufflers as a set. It's bad enough that a few auto owners changed their xforce from the cat back because the drone was unbearable. TCP mufflers are okay, but the muffler body is pretty small so you would want a good centre with 2.25" Y-pipe and a big centre muffler.
6. DP - 150-165, Turbo back - 160-180

[mynameisdaniel]

Phat dump with stock cat back (STi mufflers) + tune got me 170kW at the wheels.

Phat dump with twin 2.5" center + retune still made 170kW. But far more torque all throughout and much faster spooling at high revs.

Dyno tune by Matt vs road logging road retune (and a dyno run afterwards) also by Matt, different dynos, different days, take it as you will, but the centre was still worthwhile doing.

[spec.B]

Phat dump with stock cat back (STi mufflers) + tune got me 170kW at the wheels.

Phat dump with twin 2.5" center + retune still made 170kW. But far more torque all throughout and much faster spooling at high revs.

Dyno tune by Matt vs road logging road retune (and a dyno run afterwards) also by Matt, different dynos, different days, take it as you will, but the centre was still worthwhile doing.

Little lower than I'd expected but still respectable figures. I'm sure the big lump of usable every day torque would be worth the extra money.

What was the noise like vs stock?

What's your peak torque figure now?

[agan]

Phat dump with stock cat back (STi mufflers) + tune got me 170kW at the wheels.

Phat dump with twin 2.5" center + retune still made 170kW. But far more torque all throughout and much faster spooling at high revs.

Dyno tune by Matt vs road logging road retune (and a dyno run afterwards) also by Matt, different dynos, different days, take it as you will, but the centre was still worthwhile doing.

Daniel are you using the twin k2gear centres? How's the sound at 60km's in gear5.. Droney?

Edit: don't worry about it lol. Just realised you're 6MT.

[spec.B]

Found your exhaust video Daniel, sounds exactly like what I'm after.

[mynameisdaniel]

Yeah sounds great, has a very deep sound to it (travels right through our house when the car is warming up idling at 1500rpm which Mum hates) but not loud if that makes any sense. No noise cruising at 60kmph in 6th (car has enough torque to happily do this).

No idea what peak torque is, but it's enough to reach the limits of my tyres foot to the floor from rolling

[PoidaGT]

MSR uses X force exhausts.

There would be bugger all performance difference between a Phat & X force dump.

If you want to keep it quiet, keep the stock mufflers on as they aren't too restrictive

Get MSR to order and fit the exhaust for you and then you can save some money by deleting the mufflers.

If you order directly from x force, you can't delete the mufflers. (x force mufflers are fukn loud)

I recommend mild steel as its cheaper, better sounding and should last the length of the cars life.

[dr20t]

MSR uses X force exhausts.

There would be bugger all performance difference between a Phat & X force dump.

If you want to keep it quiet, keep the stock mufflers on as they aren't too restrictive

Sorry poida but I disagree with this. Up to a certain point then yes the mufflers are not a restriction. For example if running a dump pipe into a stock mid pipe, then changing mufflers will only really change the exhaust note and slightly improve top end power potential, as the restriction remains in the mid pipe.

However if changing to a full exhaust, you can pretty much bet the standard mufflers will restrict power. I know you said you didn't lose too much when you changed from the x force to the stock mufflers, but again I believe that is because your initial setup and tune with the aftermarket mufflers probably wasn't optimized for the increased flow. Either that or you reached the limit of other hardware such as turbo efficiency or fuel setup or something else, not the limit of the exhaust.

To put it simply, the mufflers are only required when you have maxed out the power potential of the stock mufflers - this threshold is untested i believe, as without back to back tests you can't conclusively say - but just looking at the muffler inlet and outlet (stock) you can see quite easily that these are not as free flowing as good aftermarket ones, and thus will provide a restriction alot sooner than a good aftermarket muffler. And ill put this out there, I don't necessarily believe the c force mufflers are one of those "good" mufflers

Mick

[PoidaGT]

MSR uses X force exhausts.

There would be bugger all performance difference between a Phat & X force dump.

If you want to keep it quiet, keep the stock mufflers on as they aren't too restrictive

Sorry poida but I disagree with this. Up to a certain point then yes the mufflers are not a restriction. For example if running a dump pipe into a stock mid pipe, then changing mufflers will only really change the exhaust note and slightly improve top end power potential, as the restriction remains in the mid pipe.

However if changing to a full exhaust, you can pretty much bet the standard mufflers will restrict power. I know you said you didn't lose too much when you changed from the x force to the stock mufflers, but again I believe that is because your initial setup and tune with the aftermarket mufflers probably wasn't optimized for the increased flow. Either that or you reached the limit of other hardware such as turbo efficiency or fuel setup or something else, not the limit of the exhaust.

To put it simply, the mufflers are only required when you have maxed out the power potential of the stock mufflers - this threshold is untested i believe, as without back to back tests you can't conclusively say - but just looking at the muffler inlet and outlet (stock) you can see quite easily that these are not as free flowing as good aftermarket ones, and thus will provide a restriction alot soone

r than a good aftermarket muffler. And ill put this out there, I don't necessarily believe the c force mufflers are one of those "good" mufflers

Mick

Mick, I only got 4kw tuned difference between my full Invidia TBE system compared to my dump, X force centre & Y with stock mufflers. I have since put on a bigger turbo which means I'm probably losing about 6kw now with stock mufflers.
I know I can make small gains by upgrading the rear mufflers however the noise is unbearable.
MSR told me that the stock mufflers only become a real performance blocker after 230kw atw.

[dr20t]

Well that makes more sense then

Maybe your invidia tbe was not as free flowing as the current system?

[spec.B]

Appreciate the insight guys.

What's generally the next step (and associated cost) after upgrading exhaust? Injectors/fuel pump and then turbo?

Trying to figure if I'll be disappointed with just exhaust and tune, and should perhaps look at going one step further to avoid another wasting money on another tune in the future.

ninja edit: before anyone suggests, ethanol is off the cards, I just don't see it being a practical option.

[peadya100]

Little lower than I'd expected but still respectable figures. I'm sure the big lump of usable every day torque would be worth the extra money.

What was the noise like vs stock?

What's your peak torque figure now?

I wouldnt be turned off by the 160-180kw figure. The stock engine only has around 130-140kW @ wheels. That's a 30% plus gain in peak power. The torque goes up significantly too.. mine is estimated to have 400-410Nm @ wheels from the same mods you are looking at. I can assure you that you will feel a huge improvement after the mods and tune... The peak power figure really doesnt matter though, the power gains lower in the rev range make the most impressive gain. From memory my car has 40-50kW more at 1500-2500rpm than the standard tune.

However most people will back me up on here when i say - no matter how good your gain is you will eventually get used to it and want more power

[peadya100]

Appreciate the insight guys.

What's generally the next step (and associated cost) after upgrading exhaust? Injectors/fuel pump and then turbo?

Trying to figure if I'll be disappointed with just exhaust and tune, and should perhaps look at going one step further to avoid another wasting money on another tune in the future.

ninja edit: before anyone suggests, ethanol is off the cards, I just don't see it being a practical option.

MSR will recommend a new intake - $400 installed. He said it gives you 4-6kw across the rev range and makes the turbo spool up sooner. Plus it gives the car a great turbo whistle sound.

Exhaust and tune combined with the intake will be more than enough for your first step. If you wanted to go further you could get the bigger turbo like poida did but its going to cost you around 1600 installed on top of the rest of your work. And MSR pushes the blouch turbo's which are another $400 dearer than the VF52 that poida got.

MSR claims that changing the intercooler gains you nothing at the power we're dealing with and warns that its a big waste of money.

I looked at the fuel pump and injectors idea.. it will gain you some power but will obviously make you go through fuel a lot faster.

I will eventually get the bigger turbo, but am glad im doing it in 2 stages... but if you have the money to do the turbo now, it will save you 300-400 on a retune.

[rooby]

Phat dump with stock cat back (STi mufflers) + tune got me 170kW at the wheels.

Phat dump with twin 2.5" center + retune still made 170kW. But far more torque all throughout and much faster spooling at high revs.

Dyno tune by Matt vs road logging road retune (and a dyno run afterwards) also by Matt, different dynos, different days, take it as you will, but the centre was still worthwhile doing.

Daniel are you using the twin k2gear centres? How's the sound at 60km's in gear5.. Droney?

Edit: don't worry about it lol. Just realised you're 6MT.

Why do you need to be in 5th at 60?