club.liberty.asn.au

Gday all,

I was wondering if any of the Subaru audio specialists know what frequencies the capacitors are set for in the passive cross overs on the 4 way OEM splits in the doors. I've had installed a JBL MS8 running off the HU stereo signal (we tapped of the DIN cable) into the MS8 running the centre and rear doors with a Alpine PDX-5 amp attached for the front doors and sub-woofer. All OEM speakers. McIntosh amp is removed completely. YES - your reading correctly OEM head unit, DIN input cabled tapped, into JBL MS8 with extra Alpine PDX-5 for some grunt. All hidden looks completely OEM and can be easily run off the head unit volume control and no one would know.

So now I have it set up as:

1. MS8 running centre speaker at 20W into 4 ohms.
2. Front door being two way active running 2 tweeters and two woofers paired respectively each with an amp channel per paired drivers running off the PDX-5 at 100W at 4 Ohm (measured). That's all four Alpine channels on the front doors.
3. Rear doors of the MS8 at 20 W into 4 Ohms.
4. Sub at 300W at 4 ohms of PDX-5.

To clarify point two (Thanks to Mihai):

Front left tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel1
Front left woofer + mid - PDX Channel2
Front right tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel3
Front right woofer + mid - PDX Channel4

Sub and front door new active setup were gained on the PDX-5 to match the centre at -10 dB using the MS8 noise generator before audio testing / measurement calibration. Initial crossovers points and slopes are for safety until I know what's being passively crossed over at what frequency. Before anyone gets concerned about me running so much amp into so little speakers - I'm an sound engineer both studio and live of many years. I know how to get great dynamics using well over powered amps and recognise what over excursion sounds like. The system is also gained very cautiously to protect anything from going pop. What I know is that there is a lot to be gained or lost in crossover setting and to change them isn't exactly simple, pretty easy but still takes a lot of time to test the infinite of possibilities. So any information would be a great help.

Currently set up crossed over at:

High Tweeter
Passive Unknown Frequency
Lower Tweeter
MS8 active 3500 Hz 24 dB slope
Smaller Mid Speaker
Unknown Passive Frequency
Larger Mid Bass
MS8 active 100 Hz 24 dB slope
Sub
MS* active subsonic filter at 30 Hz 24 dB slope

Centre at MS8 active high pass 350 Hz 24 dB slope
Rears at MS8 active high pass 100 Hz 24 dB slope.

Can anyone advise any information on what frequencies the drivers were passively crossed (capped) at in the OEM system? Also, where did the McIntosh amp have crossover frequencies set at if it had internal ones? I need all the crossover points as I think the active split at 3500 Hz in the doors may be wrong and the capacitor may be shelving it a bit higher.

I'd also appreciate any feedback on where others opinions on where to cross speakers on a now Logic 7, 5.1 time aligned and EQ'd system based on the OEM speakers. I'm a stereo type LOL

What does it sound like . . . brilliant. So amazingly smooth for what the OEM speakers are. The centre lets down the 5.1 but I think it might be high passed too high ATM. The dynamics are shattering in comparison to OEM, staging is well . . . it exists now. It's brilliant. It is simply the amazing sound for a car system. The auto EQ and alignment is staggering.

Listening to SRV and he was there. Steely Dan was amazing. I've only had a short time to listen though before the wife pulled me out.

The only gripe is missing some "kick" but that's probably a hangover from being used to car systems which hide poor sound with booming bass. However, because of this the dance types might not be happy. The centre speaker is also not up to the task but to replace is too hard unless someone can find me an 3" after market which I'm doubting.

Again, can anyone advise any information on what frequencies the drivers were passively crossed (capped) at in the OEM system? Also, where did the McIntosh amp have crossover frequencies set at if it had internal ones?

GTB Liberty wrote:Gday all,

I was wondering if any of the Subaru audio specialists know what frequencies the capacitors are set for in the passive cross overs on the 4 way OEM splits in the doors. I've had installed a JBL MS8 running off the HU stereo signal (we tapped of the DIN cable) into the MS8 running the centre and rear doors with a Alpine PDX-5 amp attached for the front doors and sub-woofer. All OEM speakers. McIntosh amp is removed completely. YES - your reading correctly OEM head unit, DIN input cabled tapped, into JBL MS8 with extra Alpine PDX-5 for some grunt. All hidden looks completely OEM and can be easily run off the head unit volume control and no one would know.

So now I have it set up as:

1. MS8 running centre speaker at 20W into 4 ohms.
2. Front door being two way active running 2 tweeters and two woofers paired respectively each with an amp channel per paired drivers running off the PDX-5 at 100W at 4 Ohm (measured). That's all four Alpine channels on the front doors.
3. Rear doors of the MS8 at 20 W into 4 Ohms.
4. Sub at 300W at 4 ohms of PDX-5.

Sub and front door new active setup were gained on the PDX-5 to match the centre at -10 dB using the MS8 noise generator before audio testing / measurement calibration. Initial crossovers points and slopes are for safety until I know what's being passively crossed over at what frequency. Before anyone gets concerned about me running so much amp into so little speakers - I'm an sound engineer both studio and live of many years. I know how to get great dynamics using well over powered amps and recognise what over excursion sounds like. The system is also gained very cautiously to protect anything from going pop. What I know is that there is a lot to be gained or lost in crossover setting and to change them isn't exactly simple, pretty easy but still takes a lot of time to test the infinite of possibilities. So any information would be a great help.

Currently set up crossed over at:

High Tweeter
Passive Unknown Frequency
Lower Tweeter
MS8 active 3500 Hz 24 dB slope
Smaller Mid Speaker
Unknown Passive Frequency
Larger Mid Bass
MS8 active 100 Hz 24 dB slope
Sub
MS* active subsonic filter at 30 Hz 24 dB slope

Centre at MS8 active high pass 350 Hz 24 dB slope
Rears at MS8 active high pass 100 Hz 24 dB slope.

Can anyone advise any information on what frequencies the drivers were passively crossed (capped) at in the OEM system? Also, where did the McIntosh amp have crossover frequencies set at if it had internal ones? I need all the crossover points as I think the active split at 3500 Hz in the doors may be wrong and the capacitor may be shelving it a bit higher.

I'd also appreciate any feedback on where others opinions on where to cross speakers on a now Logic 7, 5.1 time aligned and EQ'd system based on the OEM speakers. I'm a stereo type LOL

What does it sound like . . . brilliant. So amazingly smooth for what the OEM speakers are. The centre lets down the 5.1 but I think it might be high passed too high ATM. The dynamics are shattering in comparison to OEM, staging is well . . . it exists now. It's brilliant. It is simply the amazing sound for a car system. The auto EQ and alignment is staggering.

Listening to SRV and he was there. Steely Dan was amazing. I've only had a short time to listen though before the wife pulled me out.

The only gripe is missing some "kick" but that's probably a hangover from being used to car systems which hide poor sound with booming bass. However, because of this the dance types might not be happy. The centre speaker is also not up to the task but to replace is too hard unless someone can find me an 3" after market which I'm doubting.

Again, can anyone advise any information on what frequencies the drivers were passively crossed (capped) at in the OEM system? Also, where did the McIntosh amp have crossover frequencies set at if it had internal ones?

wow..

Well done on the install. Sounds like the JBL MS-8 is a good OEM solution for the Liberty. I tried a Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 and didn't quite like it.

Not entirely sure about the crossover points on the McIntosh system, however could you please clarify the following? Had a bit of trouble getting my head around your wording.

GTB Liberty wrote:2. Front door being two way active running 2 tweeters and two woofers paired respectively each with an amp channel per paired drivers running off the PDX-5 at 100W at 4 Ohm (measured). That's all four Alpine channels on the front doors.

Are you saying that you are now running only 2 speakers per front door instead of 4?
If yes, then I take it that the following is true (ignoring exact output channel):
Front left tweeter - PDX Channel1
Front left woofer - PDX Channel2
Front right tweeter - PDX Channel3
Front right woofer - PDX Channel4

Or are you saying that you are running the following:
Front left tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel1
Front left woofer + mid - PDX Channel2
Front right tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel3
Front right woofer + mid - PDX Channel4

mihai wrote:
Or are you saying that you are running the following:
Front left tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel1
Front left woofer + mid - PDX Channel2
Front right tweeter + squaker - PDX Channel3
Front right woofer + mid - PDX Channel4

The above.

An interesting read. I can't advise on crossover points as I never got around to going to too much effort in my old Lib, however much I would have liked to, it does sound very conservative the way you have it set at the moment. It's good to see someone overpowering speakers and setting the gains properly to get the most out of their drivers. Did you go with the PDX for ease of install, having a pretty small form 5 channel is a massive plus for it, or were there other factors? I'm only asking because I have found in my experience that at some frequencies the PDX can lack some punch.

The MS8 is a fantastic unit, great bang for buck compared to the Audison. Well done, hopefully you get the info your after. Would be interesting to hear how different a properly EQ'd and T/A'd OEM Liberty stereo sounds.

Have you installed any Dynamat? That will definitely help with the midbass response. Also, have you played with the factory speakers mounts? i.e. Have you replaced the (from memory) plastic baffles with mdf or similar? I remember having a play with my old Mazda, I replaced the plastic mounts with mdf and properly sealed the drivers, the difference it made was definitely noticeable, however they were still terrible papercone factory speakers being fed with a piddly 5-10wRMS off the HU. I probably don't need to mention to you thast these are just a couple of things that may help fill some gaps in the frequency response.

Are you planning on upgrading to some proper speakers overtime or just happy with the OEM set up???

As for an upgrade to the centre channel driver, CDT make some pretty decent 2, 3, and 4inch tweeters and mid ranges that coule be utilised (depending on installation limitations). Specifically the ES-02 ES-03 and ES-04. There is also the Crescendo MB-3 (3.6" midrange), I haven't heard this particular driver, but it's Crescendo, it will be fantastic LOL. Focal definitely make some 4" drivers. Email Marty at FHRX Studios here in NSW, fhrxstudios@bigpond.com www.fhrxstudios.com.au

Well, bloody, done mate. Keep up the good work... One more thing... Pics or it's all lies!!! LOL

garbo41610 wrote:An interesting read. I can't advise on crossover points as I never got around to going to too much effort in my old Lib, however much I would have liked to, it does sound very conservative the way you have it set at the moment. It's good to see someone overpowering speakers and setting the gains properly to get the most out of their drivers. Did you go with the PDX for ease of install, having a pretty small form 5 channel is a massive plus for it, or were there other factors? I'm only asking because I have found in my experience that at some frequencies the PDX can lack some punch.

The MS8 is a fantastic unit, great bang for buck compared to the Audison. Well done, hopefully you get the info your after. Would be interesting to hear how different a properly EQ'd and T/A'd OEM Liberty stereo sounds.

Have you installed any Dynamat? That will definitely help with the midbass response. Also, have you played with the factory speakers mounts? i.e. Have you replaced the (from memory) plastic baffles with mdf or similar? I remember having a play with my old Mazda, I replaced the plastic mounts with mdf and properly sealed the drivers, the difference it made was definitely noticeable, however they were still terrible papercone factory speakers being fed with a piddly 5-10wRMS off the HU. I probably don't need to mention to you thast these are just a couple of things that may help fill some gaps in the frequency response.

Are you planning on upgrading to some proper speakers overtime or just happy with the OEM set up???

As for an upgrade to the centre channel driver, CDT make some pretty decent 2, 3, and 4inch tweeters and mid ranges that coule be utilised (depending on installation limitations). Specifically the ES-02 ES-03 and ES-04. There is also the Crescendo MB-3 (3.6" midrange), I haven't heard this particular driver, but it's Crescendo, it will be fantastic LOL. Focal definitely make some 4" drivers. Email Marty at FHRX Studios here in NSW, fhrxstudios@bigpond.com http://www.fhrxstudios.com.au

Well, bloody, done mate. Keep up the good work... One more thing... Pics or it's all lies!!! LOL

PDX-5 was chosen for small form factor.
MS8 is brilliant but so clean that most would think it sounds "wrong".
Dynamat maybe in future. Rear parcel shelf to help the bass and rattles. No plans for the doors.
No plans to replace mounts. Was not wanting to load up the car with MDF and Dynamat on the front doors. The idea was to keep the OEM mounts speakers etc unless I cook one.
I'll look at better centre driver - thanks for the info.
Almost no pics but i'll find one or two and post.

The aim was to see how good the OEM setup could be with better processing an amp power. I know my current X overs and slopes are very conservative but it was a quick first set up. I need the X over points to start building from here.


So - can anyone help with the X over points of the OEM McIntosh system?

Ric? Cpitts? Tangcla?

Well I've been playing with the X-over points and getting a better sound.

However, can anyone help with the OEM points?

PLEASE

garbo41610 wrote:Well, bloody, done mate. Keep up the good work... One more thing... Pics or it's all lies!!! LOL

Who is that man

Sorry that's it guys. No photos of the Alpine PDX-5 but imagine this:



Under the other seat.

Well with some more time to experiment I came up with the following.

[*] If using external amps use the auto calibration at a much lower volume (-30 or -40dB) to gain an apparent increase in midbass.
[*]OEM sub is OK at 20 Hz subsonic filtering but probably best to use 30 Hz for safety.
[*] Have the fronts door splits crossed over at 80 Hz for better mid bass.
[*] Rear doors' speakers high passed at 100 Hz leads to better Logic 7 sound.

Still looking for any information regarding the passive crossover points in the front door drivers.

Nice to see someone going with a processor
Saw your question posted on many other forums hehhe
Wish i knew the answer... Never got technical with the stock speakers..

Wow, you got the OEM sub playing at 20Hz... Interesting... I would have thought it would only play "OK" (I mean come one, it's still terrible LOL) down to 35Hz or MAAAAAYBE 30Hz max!

garbo41610 wrote:Wow, you got the OEM sub playing at 20Hz... Interesting... I would have thought it would only play "OK" (I mean come one, it's still terrible LOL) down to 35Hz or MAAAAAYBE 30Hz max!

Basically "OK" means "hasn't died"

Rolled it off at 30Hz @ 24 dB slope for safety.

Hmmm... that's the difference between you and me, I roll with my sh*t OFF safety just like Doctor D.R.E. straight from the streets of C.P.T repping 2.1.3

Seriously though, that sounds about right when you consider the drivers' limitations.

***EDIT*** Oh yes, before anyone mentions it, I am that much of a wanker!

garbo41610 wrote:Hmmm... that's the difference between you and me, I roll with my sh*t OFF safety just like Doctor D.R.E. straight from the streets of C.P.T repping 2.1.3

Seriously though, that sounds about right when you consider the drivers' limitations.

***EDIT*** Oh yes, before anyone mentions it, I am that much of a wanker!

Maybe that's the difference between our likes in sound. I prefer sealed sub enclosures with heaps of amperage behind them. Then safety and rolling off isn't an issue.

10" sealed enclosure with 1200W RMS / 2000W Peak in my living room has bass extension below anything you've probably heard and is smooth and musical as they can make . Shake rattle and roll that does.

The aim of the car was best sound with the least amount of work n dollars. So far so good. The parcel shelf eventually will get Dynamat and I'll see if I can slide a 8", preferably 10" into the shelf with some minor mods to help and take full advantage of the Alpine's 300W.

Maybe that's the difference between our likes in sound. I prefer sealed sub enclosures with heaps of amperage behind them. Then safety and rolling off isn't an issue.

LOL I was just mucking around, whenever anyone at work says anything like "on/off safety" I always promptly respond with, "Yeah, well, I'm O.G. and always roll with my sh1t off safety" Dr Dre songs and rap in general can give endless amounts of entertainment in their vernacular. Goddamn I sound old lmao. I also prefer the sound from sealed over ported etc enclosures.

10" sealed enclosure with 1200W RMS / 2000W Peak in my living room has bass extension below anything you've probably heard and is smooth and musical as they can make . Shake rattle and roll that does.

I've built a few SQ systems in my time that have been fairly successful, it is a shame I spent so much time and money on car audio and not concentrated enough on home audio lol

The parcel shelf eventually will get Dynamat and I'll see if I can slide a 8", preferably 10" into the shelf with some minor mods to help and take full advantage of the Alpine's 300W.

You can fit 8's in there without too much hassle, a 10" would be very interesting though.... veeeeeery interesting indeed.

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