E85 Compatible Oils.

[dan_ashcroft]

HPR 0, HPR5 too high viscosity? What?
Might as well go with Enviro+ GF-5.

Hmmm, I was confused there for a while, but then worked out that the Penrite website has two versions of their E85 compatible document, a new one in the technical bulletin page, and an old one linked from the individual product pages that doesn't include the lower viscosity HPRs. I contacted Penrite about HPR, 10 Tenths Racing 10 and Enviro+ GF-5 and will relay that in posts below.

[dan_ashcroft]

A gentleman by the name of Alan at Penrite has given me permission to quote "carefully" so I'll try to do him justice.
(Heads-up: any discussion from here re a product being "suitable" is related to my road usage.)

HPR5 isn't listed as suitable for road use due as it "would require very frequent oil changes: practical for racing perhaps, but not for road use or combination use with the implied interval of several thousand kilometres between changes".

He also pointed out that "this also applies to Racing 10 -this PAO/ester blend and the additive package are intended for use with petrol" and confirmed my question re some comments I read elsewhere that as 10 Tenths is Ester based it is isn't suitable for E85 as "those with ester in the formulation will not separate cleanly -ethanol and esters can mix, which is not what we want."

[dan_ashcroft]

Re choosing the right spec to determine E85 compatibility, this is what I can work out:

ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee) created spec GF-5 for modern energy-saving-design engines that use low viscosity oils, and increased usage of E85. A nice write-up and spider graph re change from earlier spec here: http://www.motor.com/newsletters/20100110/Indepth2_GF-5OilStandard.html

API (American Petroleum Institute) then introduces their own spec to meet the same requirements. As per http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php Specification "SN with Resource Conserving" (or sometimes seen as "SN/RC", "SN-RC" etc) matches all the points in the ILSAC GF-5 spec, and it gives a good breakdown of what these are, and the difference between vanilla SN and SN-RC.

Edit: it seems that API SN is not necessarily automatically E85 compatible as it lists "compatibility with engines operating on ethanol containing fuels, up to E-85" as being part of the additional "Resource Conserving" requirements.

The fact that these specs tie a low viscosity oil with E85 usage means we probably won't see oils in these specs offered with higher viscosity engines. Although, I am guessing that increased oil-change intervals means that I'll be changing it out before I hit the Min mark on the dipstick anyway. Eventually, if there is ever enough demand, ie E85 goes mainstream, it is possible that oil manufacturers may create higher viscosity oils to meet this requirement in the market..?

[dan_ashcroft]

Something that I found interesting was that he mentioned that "They use approximately 30% more fuel than standard unleaded so there is a far greater likelihood of oil dilution". I knew that E85 is less dense, therefore more fuel, but I hadn't made it to the next step in my mind that the increased volume of fuel in the combustion chamber would increase the volume of any unburnt fuel getting past the rings. Makes sense?

[dan_ashcroft]

Hopefully the above helps any other people like myself who in looking into E85 oils. There just seems to be little on the subject.
(Apologies to anyone that is already on top of this - dont' want to come across as the preacher man.)

I am going to go for the Enviro+ GF-5 to start, and plan to get tested at 2000 km intervals until "dead" and then graph it out and post it on here for the forum and internets. This will be about one test a month, or slightly over. I'm not rich, but at max $35 a month for a test I shouldn't notice it too much. Will use the same filter, just drop oil, take sample and reload. This sound sound?

Then plan to go with best Nulon option, then maybe others from there. The Amsoil seems worth testing for sure.

Now, just have to service the car, and get swapped/tuned to E85.

[fedaykin]

Good stuff!

[dan_ashcroft]

Well, I said I would do it, and I have, it just took me a long time as my work location has changed since I last posted in this thread, so don't do the kms I use to do.

Notes:
* Have basically had a test done every 2000 kms since switching to E85. The first 1000kms of HPR Diesel 5 were on 98 while waiting for flex tune so I started testing at 3000 kms on this oil.
* Not all the 100'C viscosity tests were done by the lab due to clerical errors, but we can still see the pattern.
* Tests performed by e-monitor.com.au. Slightly frustrating that they don't perform the 100'C viscosity test as standard on petrol oils. Doesn't cost extra, just have to ask for this to happen, but the data entry people don't always pay attention to the request when it is added to the form.

Oil descriptions (from Penrite website)
ENVIRO+ GF-5 is designed for use in modern 4, 6 & 8+ cylinder multi-cam, multi-valve (including VVT), naturally aspirated, supercharged & turbocharged engines low emission engines including petrol/electric hybrids. ENVIRO+ GF-5 is designed for use with flexi-fuel vehicles that can run on both unleaded petrol and E85 ethanol blend fuels.

HPR DIESEL 5 is designed for use in modern 4, 6 & 8+ cylinder multi cam, multi valve (including VVT), naturally aspirated, supercharged, turbocharged common rail & direct injection diesel engines. HPR DIESEL 5 is a premium high performance, semi synthetic, SAE 5W-40, non-friction modified engine oil. It contains a DOUBLE LAYER of engine wear protection with FULL ZINC and Penrite's advanced EXTRA TEN technology.

The observant will notice I have used two different grades of oil - this is because Enviro+ GF-5 is not available in a 5w40, which is my preferred grade due to my engine being over 200k kms. In terms of testing, the recommended minimum / max viscosity for 30 grade oil at operating temperature (100'C) is 9.3 / 12.5, and for 40 grade it is 12.5 / 16.3
(from http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/)

2017MarResults.png (41.32 KiB) Viewed 3527 times

* The HPR Diesel 5 kept a steady 13 at operating temp (100'C). A couple of the last samples for this oil were never tested at 100'C due to lab error, but fair to assume that it held within spec due to the 40'C test values staying steady.
* Increase in viscosity noticed at 9250kms on HPR Diesel 5 was due to adding around 700 ml of oil to engine.
* The Enviro+ GF-5 was technically too viscous early on for a 30 grade oil, which is the cause for the caution flag at 2000kms. Being within the 40 grade band isn't a problem for me as I prefer a 40 grade oil. However, we can see how the Penrite Enviro+ GF-5 has degraded quickly over 4000 kms and at that point is getting close to the minimum limit of a 30 grade oil. I am now at 4600kms so expect it will be borderline or even just below the min for a 30 grade oil.

I am happy with the results from the first oil, so going back to HPR Diesel 5.

Hopefully these test will help others who are looking to go to, or are already on E85.

NB, Alexeiwoody also mentioned earlier on in this thread that he had good results with an Amsoil diesel oil so it appears that there must be something in the formulation for diesel that also makes it suited to E85.

[SIMBAT]

i use Motul 300v Chrono 10w40

smells delicious

[dr20t]

i use Motul 300v Chrono 10w40

smells delicious

I'm not even exaggerating here, but you may as well use Coles oil instead of that IF you're running e85

For non ethanol fuels, the motul is fantastic. But the 300V is extremely susceptible to breakdown with e85

Look into the HTHS and TBN ratings and you will understand why. But above all, the esters in the motul itself are not suitable to solvent based fuels which will cause the much earlier breakdown as compared with some other oils mentioned in this thread.

Danashcroft - thanks for sharing your findings. Did you end up trying the ten tenths I recommended?

Mick

[tom_kauf]

I'll report on my next Oil Analysis, when I get it done. Bill from Lubrication Management recommended Bel-Ray Diesel Oil for my car on E85.

They are also the Amsoil sellers in Melbourne.
He said they've had slightly better results with Bel-Ray over the Amsoils (but both very good).

The previous oil analysis by Bill, was Castrol Edge 5W30 (used by my mechanic). It held up surprisingly well, but was getting close to the maximum recommended Fuel Dilution after just under 4000km. No other issues apart from that.

So the recommendation was either to do Oil changes 3x as often as the normal Subaru interval (about 4000km), or run a better oil like the Bel-Ray. If Bill's tests show that it safely gives me 5000-6000km, I'll do that instead. The next test results will be a direct comparison at the same km as the Castrol was, and then again at 5000-6000km.

[dan_ashcroft]

Did you end up trying the ten tenths I recommended?

Mick

Haven't had the chance up till now as not doing the kms that I use to... but... swapped some in today. Hope you don't mind waiting for a few months until I have something to show.

Made an error today. Took the oil sample for the Enviro+ when draining the oil, but this was after I had put Penrite engine flush in. I expect this will have to throw the viscosity test out, but am interested to see if I will see an increase in different particles in the oil, i.e. does the engine flush actually flush out the oilways?


@tom_kauf: the more the merrier