club.liberty.asn.au

Hi there,

I have just enquired about reconditioning Bilsteins and I am considering getting this done. Around $250 per corner gets inserts fully re-conditioned including new oil and seals and the external tubes re-greased and bearings replaced (the bit that causes the knock). For an extra $50 per corner you can get the valving modified although I was advised this would not be required. I am intending to fit recently purchased Swift springs on them. I have a couple of questions which will help me make my decision:

a) If my shocks aren't experiencing any issues and they are just 130K old, will I benefit from having the struts reconditioned back to new condition? As in do they over time become less effective and how close to the end of their useful life would they be.

b) Secondly, do I do all 4 or do the fronts take much more of a beating than the rears etc or vice versa

Cheers,

The rears seem to fade out pucker in the wagons. My fronts are still pretty good but the rears are on their way out. Personally, I would be doing all at once as you'll be upsetting the balance of the car having two new one at one end and two flogged ones at the other. One hundred and thirty thousand ks on Australian roads it a fair wack for a shock.

Honestly though, I don't think paying $1000 to recondition them to stock level is money well spent. The OEM Bilsteins are a price point brand item and not up to the performance of aftermarket Bilstein products. If you want to stay with Bilstein hunt down a price on B6 shocks and fit your springs to those. The B6 is the start of Bilstein's lowered heavy duty sports line designed for shorter springs.

Adrian2627 wrote:The rears seem to fade out pucker in the wagons. My fronts are still pretty good but the rears are on their way out. Personally, I would be doing all at once as you'll be upsetting the balance of the car having two new one at one end and two flogged ones at the other. One hundred and thirty thousand ks on Australian roads it a fair wack for a shock.

Honestly though, I don't think paying $1000 to recondition them to stock level is money well spent. The OEM Bilsteins are a price point brand item and not up to the performance of aftermarket Bilstein products. If you want to stay with Bilstein hunt down a price on B6 shocks and fit your springs to those. The B6 is the start of Bilstein's lowered heavy duty sports line designed for shorter springs.

I have to disagree there Adrian. These Bilsteins are a fantastic shock, although with crap valving and springs.

Get the Billies revalved by someone who knows what they're doing (easier said than done), match up the correct springs and you'll have yourself a winner.

It might be easier to just buy a quality set of coilovers, you'll gain adjustable dampening and height, with perhaps a slight increase in NVH due to losing the rubber mounts. It can also be hard to get the right valving the first time around, which might end up in money wasted if you get someone who hasn't done the shock for your particular car before. But if you're against coils, or have the right technician available...it's a great option.

If you've read all the hype about Shockworks - the same performance is attainable from our Bilsteins, with the right coding. Properly coded shocks transform the car.

Thanks guys for both your input. Apparently there are only two official Bilstein service centres in Australia, one in Sydney and one in Melbourne. The Sydney guy recons he re-does a lot of the Melbourne guys work .

I am not interested in a coil over and I don't think there is anything cheap about a OEM Bilstein versus a aftermarket one, they are just intended for different applications. The alternative for me would be KYB AGX adjustables with the Swifts but I have been very happy with the Billies but the springs are tired and hence the Swifts. I probably will do both front and rear, I just didn't want to reco a shock that is only 50% through its useful life if that makes sense.

alexeiwoody wrote:I have to disagree there Adrian. These Bilsteins are a fantastic shock, although with crap valving and springs.

Get the Billies revalved by someone who knows what they're doing (easier said than done), match up the correct springs and you'll have yourself a winner.

It might be easier to just buy a quality set of coilovers, you'll gain adjustable dampening and height, with perhaps a slight increase in NVH due to losing the rubber mounts. It can also be hard to get the right valving the first time around, which might end up in money wasted if you get someone who hasn't done the shock for your particular car before. But if you're against coils, or have the right technician available...it's a great option.

If you've read all the hype about Shockworks - the same performance is attainable from our Bilsteins, with the right coding. Properly coded shocks transform the car.

How exactly are you disagreeing Alexi? The OEM Bilsteins are built for Subaru with budget oils and basic valving and then topped off with Subaru springs. They are better than the standard Kyb shocks but far below Bilsteins regular products.

Coilovers would be easier for the reasons you mentioned and they're not just for the track anymore with more and more models aimed at a comfortable, controlled ride on the street. The new TEIN Flex Z comes to mind as one option for the Legacy/Liberty. However, not everyone wants coilovers for various reasons hence my recommending the B6 line which features short Spring specific valving, better oils, and better build quality. That would provide a more off-the-shelf solution as I completely agree finding someone and getting the valving right could end up costing quite a bit.

Iirc coilies are a hassle due to the laws in SA.
But who gets harassed in Libs anyway?

Iirc Hart suspension in Melb refurb billies, but non "authorised".
Do not get "sport" valving, too harsh on the street.
Ask 3rbspec (gino) who had his done via Trutrack at Quadrant.

IMHO it's a metric crap ton of good money after bad.
Personally I like the better bump and bottom out capability of a digressive damper.
Nevertheless keen to see how it works out.

I just had mine done. The fronts were sent to Syd by the dealer, which has resolved the knock noise (has been without noise for months now ).
But because getting them done at the Syd Bilstein specialist took 1 month (maybe the delay was with my dealer mechanic, I'm not sure), I thought I'd try the Melbourne specialist and send down the rears myself. Thanks to shocks having to go via road freight, it's just an unavoidable slow process. But I had the rears back in 10 days or so.

Our rear Bilstein shocks can't be reconditioned. The guys said the top of the shock is crimped. They can cut the top off and recon them, but that's not ideal since it reduces the avaible shock travel by about 5mm.
But he tested my rear ones and said they were still almost 100%, so they must be newer than the 170,000km the car has.

And yeah, they were definitely made down to a price because of Subaru. No aftermarket Bilstein shock I know of has the issues ours have. That's why I actually preferred getting them overhauled by Bilstein, instead of getting new ones from Subaru (which will have the same issues again eventually).

I like the stock setup, it suits the bumpy roads we have up here, while still handling the twisty roads beautifully. But that's a personal preference I know. People rave about Shockworks ones, but there are also people who got them and do not like the increase in NVH.

Subscribed to this as I am interested in the differences.

I really really want shockworks coilovers. But am really scared of the issues of my insurance not paying out in the event of an accident due them not complying to SA law, which they have every right to. Unless someone knows someone who can get them engineered on the cheap here, it is unlikely it will happen.

Iirc it's a matter of removing the adjustable height aspect, eg by incorporating an alloy sleeve between the coilover lockrings. But a little research should clarify.

I've been in Doms GT with RSR ti2000 springs and s402 billies, sways etc, rides great but still sub optimal for charging massive bumps.

Nvh w/ c/o's could be sorted eg with WL camber caster tops or new OEM tops.
If the rebuilds work out, that's great cos there's nothing like improving on OEM.
It's was certainly in the plan (with swifts) till the SW opportunity arose

bigBADbenny wrote:Iirc it's a matter of removing the adjustable height aspect, eg by incorporating an alloy sleeve between the coilover lockrings. But a little research should clarify.

Very interesting Ben. I might look into it.

Tom have you seen aftermarket Bilsteins that have done over 100K on them? Things wear out over time and 10 years and in my case 130,000ks is not a bad innings. The cause of the knock is a journal bearing on the inside of the outer tube that wears over time and creates play. When they reco them they use a better grease which prolongs this issue (read -> minimum another 100K out of them, can't complain about that). Sounds like I am talking to the same Bilstein agent in Sydney who warned of long delays but also explained he could do better lead times if he is warned in advance that the shocks are coming out and down to him. Interesting about the rears not being serviceable. I am not going to re-vavle either, too risky. I have been advised by a reputable Subaru mechanic and engine builder that the bump stops in the billies are too big and can be safely cut in half, not sure if anyone else has heard that. Remember I am doing this for street use, no track work, day to day driving enthusiastically only. Coilovers would be overkill in performance and budget for my needs.

Adrian2627 wrote:How exactly are you disagreeing Alexi? The OEM Bilsteins are built for Subaru with budget oils and basic valving and then topped off with Subaru springs. They are better than the standard Kyb shocks but far below Bilsteins regular products.

Coilovers would be easier for the reasons you mentioned and they're not just for the track anymore with more and more models aimed at a comfortable, controlled ride on the street. The new TEIN Flex Z comes to mind as one option for the Legacy/Liberty. However, not everyone wants coilovers for various reasons hence my recommending the B6 line which features short Spring specific valving, better oils, and better build quality. That would provide a more off-the-shelf solution as I completely agree finding someone and getting the valving right could end up costing quite a bit.

I'm disagreeing with the Bilstein being a low quality shock.

I'm not only taking the words of people who know a thing or two about suspension - Ralph from TruTrack, Brett from Shockworks, Tony aka Coyote etc, but also comparing them directly to the highly regarded, Shockworks coilovers.

Having been in a few libs with Shockworks, it is very hard to find a difference in ride quality or handling/grip. We drove my lib with revalved Billies vs another lib with Shockworks, back to back, and could not tell a significant difference. The sound/feel was slightly different over speedbumps, and the owner of the other lib preferred the Billies because they were a little quieter/smoother over the bump. "Grass being greener on the other side", I quite liked the SWs. But to say one was clearly better? Not a chance.

Both hold the car flat, both are very pleasant to drive on vs stock suspension. Railway lines are smooth and planted, while super bumpy dirt roads are not fun on either setup. I feel like maybe the SWs are able to carry the car a little more flat while driving over sudden drops in the road, like going over a bridge (not more or less comfortable, just may be a tiny variance in coding? Or it might be completely placebo - it's that small a difference); at the same time the SW - let the nose of the car tilt when coming to a stop at the lights, which a little annoying vs the Billies' ability to hold the nose nice and stable.

The SWs make some extra noises vs the Billies, as noted by a few people, as they're missing the rubber tops and have the springs somewhat loose (I thought the other guys were imagining things, but I when I finally heard a spring go POING, it was fairly loud and weird on a street car. Thankfully it only happened once ). So for a street car - the Billies win my vote by maybe 5-10%. For having the option for adjustable dampening/height for track work, and ability to fit wider rims - the SW kick ass.

Which handles better in the twisties? We haven't had a chance to compare them yet, back to back. I honestly think the libs will be more limited by the rubber compound/size and the quality of our AWD system (aka 3WD system) than the choice between either shock. We're well past 'normal' street driving by this stage, so I'd say for OP's purpose - this is not an issue. Logically the heaviest dampening of the SW should handle better on the track, but if track work was the main purpose of the lib - this thread wouldn't even exist.

As for budget oils, valving and springs....if they're all being changed over for the better - the "budgetness" of the stock shock is not an issue. Unless the OP wants to keep the valve coding stock

Thanks for reading!


Shaheenis, if you want to try and get the shocks valved right the first time - I've written about this extensively before in regards to what exactly needs to be done to get the setup right, possibly even in response to your question once upon a time. Since this feels like it's going in circles, I'm sure you can look up that post, rather than me typing it up again.

Hey alexei: What was the damper settings on the SW equipped lib you're referring to?
If mine, it was either full soft or +2 rear...
As for billies, are you referring to stock or your revalved set?
What was the intention or spec with the revalve job?
We're gonna have to do another half day of back to back testing on available sorted setups

bigBADbenny wrote:Hey alexei: What was the damper settings on the SW equipped lib you're referring to?
If mine, it was either full soft or +2 rear...
As for billies, are you referring to stock or your revalved set?
What was the intention or spec with the revalve job?
We're gonna have to do another half day of back to back testing on available sorted setups

SW were on softest setting, I believe

And I'm referring to my revalved Billies. I'm by no means a fan of stock Billies; even with pink springs, they are pretty loose. The car sways around like a boat, and loses grip easily too.

That day we went in your Lib, while I was impressed with the SW, we should have also driven mine straight after. I drove it down the same bumpy road a week later and the Billies did a good job also. For some reason I remembered them as being terrible there - but you saw for yourself how bad the surface was. I think we were worried about your rim buckling at least once...

Unfortunately I don't know the specs of this current valve code, but I've done at least one lengthy write up on this forum, so if you look it up, I touch on some specific areas to address, especially on the fronts.

Yeah, let me know when you want to catch up and we can have another go

Shaheenis, I haven't seen Billies with high Ks apart from my own. But I agree - like any shock, they will wear out with age. I was ready to either refurbish or replace all 4 corners of my 170,000km car. But I've only done 25,000km since I bought the car, so I wrongly assumed all 4 shocks were that old. But when the Melbourne specialist said the rears tested at almost 100%, with almost no pitting of the chrome on the shock's Shaft (which the guy said is a good sign that they were still pretty new), I knew they must've been replaced by the previous owner.

Yeah I think there are only 2 authorised specialists in Aus, like others have said. Not sure who the Sydney one is (it may be Bilstein themselves). The Melbourne one is Quadrant Suspension in Berwick. They only charged me for the testing and freight, so I was happy with them. But they didn't need to do any reconditioning in my case, so I can't comment on their recon work.

The Subaru dealership had already confirmed that the rears on our cars are not serviceable (by asking the Sydney specialist I assume). So that is a definite - both Syd & Melb specialists have independently confirmed that. But I sent my rears to Quadrant because they said they could do them anyway (via modifying them), even though they didn't recommend that route.

Interesting read Alexei - nice!