Vf52 experiences vs 46

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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby <GB> » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:59 am

Newbie GT wrote:
dr20t wrote:What are you comparing this to though?

Where else can you spend 2k to get circa 50kw atw?

Coyote - agreed I'm talking about threshold but the point is 5 or so psi from my 3076 is more than enough torque at 2500rpm to get me around town. And the beauty is when I want to put my foot down at the track it will hold power to redline

Just my 2 cents

Mick


Comparing to nothing just wondering if the upgrade to the vf52? Would be beneficial as worried it won't come on strong like the vf46 :/ just the vf46 runs out of steam

Why do you want it to come on strong?
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Manaz » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:35 pm

<GB> wrote:
Newbie GT wrote:
Comparing to nothing just wondering if the upgrade to the vf52? Would be beneficial as worried it won't come on strong like the vf46 :/ just the vf46 runs out of steam

Why do you want it to come on strong?


It's not that the VF46 comes on strong - rather, it comes onto boost sooner.

The VF52 comes on later, but the spool (rate at which the boost increases) is stronger (and ends higher).

Basically, the VF46 is a smaller turbo. So it comes onto boost earlier (lower rotational inertia to overcome), but can't maintain boost at the exhaust levels at high rpm, so it starts to tail off (drop boost as you get close to the redline).

The VF52 is larger. It comes on boost later (higher rotational inertia to overcome), it boosts to a higher level, and because it's bigger, copes better with the exhaust volumes at high rpm, so doesn't tail off (it holds boost to the redline).
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby <GB> » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Manaz wrote:
<GB> wrote:
Newbie GT wrote:
Comparing to nothing just wondering if the upgrade to the vf52? Would be beneficial as worried it won't come on strong like the vf46 :/ just the vf46 runs out of steam

Why do you want it to come on strong?


It's not that the VF46 comes on strong - rather, it comes onto boost sooner.

The VF52 comes on later, but the spool (rate at which the boost increases) is stronger (and ends higher).

Basically, the VF46 is a smaller turbo. So it comes onto boost earlier (lower rotational inertia to overcome), but can't maintain boost at the exhaust levels at high rpm, so it starts to tail off (drop boost as you get close to the redline).

The VF52 is larger. It comes on boost later (higher rotational inertia to overcome), it boosts to a higher level, and because it's bigger, copes better with the exhaust volumes at high rpm, so doesn't tail off (it holds boost to the redline).

i know the sizes are different, if its the later spool im sure a good tune will get it close to a 46 without a tune. my turbo which i think is the same size as justins comes on hard where his is smooth and on a fraction early

imo i wouldnt worry about the differences in spool between stock turbos
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Newbie GT » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:06 pm

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... 98675.html

interesting does this really show true comparison?
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby dr20t » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:08 pm

Newbie GT wrote:http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/spool-study-between-vf46-and-vf52-198675.html

interesting does this really show true comparison?


No I think it shows a fake comparison actually
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Manaz » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:31 pm

Newbie GT wrote:http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/spool-study-between-vf46-and-vf52-198675.html

interesting does this really show true comparison?


That's a really interesting comparison. According to that, at no time is the car with the VF52 producing less power or torque than the VF46 equipped car.

Assuming all other things are equal (and that is a big assumption, I'll say why in a minute), that would indicate that although the VF52 spools later, at no stage does it produce less boost than the VF46 (as boost is critical to torque and thus power production).

One thing to note is that this testing was done on cars with FMICs. FMICs have different characteristics to TMICs (otherwise people wouldn't use them) which may or may not influence spool-up speed (there is a generally [but not 100%] held thought that FMICs introduce additional turbo lag due to the larger air volumes they contain when compared to TMIC setups) - and it's theoretically possible that this additional lag may impact the VF46 more detrimentally than it impacts a VF52.

And of course, the VF52 in this case has tubular headers, which may have an impact on spool speed as well.

So, in the end, this comparison is most useful if you have exactly the same mods as the cars listed in the article. If not, then the results you see may well be different.
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Newbie GT » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Manaz wrote:
Newbie GT wrote:http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/spool-study-between-vf46-and-vf52-198675.html

interesting does this really show true comparison?


That's a really interesting comparison. According to that, at no time is the car with the VF52 producing less power or torque than the VF46 equipped car.

Assuming all other things are equal (and that is a big assumption, I'll say why in a minute), that would indicate that although the VF52 spools later, at no stage does it produce less boost than the VF46 (as boost is critical to torque and thus power production).

One thing to note is that this testing was done on cars with FMICs. FMICs have different characteristics to TMICs (otherwise people wouldn't use them) which may or may not influence spool-up speed (there is a generally [but not 100%] held thought that FMICs introduce additional turbo lag due to the larger air volumes they contain when compared to TMIC setups) - and it's theoretically possible that this additional lag may impact the VF46 more detrimentally than it impacts a VF52.

And of course, the VF52 in this case has tubular headers, which may have an impact on spool speed as well.

So, in the end, this comparison is most useful if you have exactly the same mods as the cars listed in the article. If not, then the results you see may well be different.


Cheers Manaz like I said it really looks like there is not much advantage to a vf52 over stock
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby bosc0 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:30 pm

dr20t wrote:No I think it shows a fake comparison actually


Oh my... that was some funny shit right thur.
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Manaz » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:46 pm

Newbie GT wrote:Cheers Manaz like I said it really looks like there is not much advantage to a vf52 over stock


The benefits are:

* More Boost/Torque/Power
* The Boost/Torque/Power are held to the redline (the VF46 becomes inefficient and drops boost as you approach the redline).

I personally will be upgrading to a VF52. It's not an upgrade you'd do in isolation, but rather as part of an overall upgrade package.
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby dr20t » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:54 pm

I'm putting this out there that until and unless you prove to me that you are actualy LISTENING to or READING the advice being provided, I will no longer offer any real form of advice to you.

If you merely read what has been said (heck even if you read what you have said) then you can answer every single one of your questions in this thread. You've answered them yourself many times over!

Why you troll much for?
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby rooby » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:39 pm

Newbie GT wrote:
Cheers Manaz like I said it really looks like there is not much advantage to a vf52 over stock


What did you expect, an extra 100kw?

The advantage is an extra 30ish kw.

If you want around 170 - 180 kw then stay with the stock turbo - and change things like exhaust, intercooler, tune.
If you want around 200 - 210 kw then get a the 52 (or alternatively some other turbo upgrade) - will still require mods like exhaust, intercooler, tune and fuel system components.
If you want more than that get an even bigger turbo.

Remember this is from somewhere around 135kw stock, so to go to 200 is a decent improvement.
You will most definitely feel the difference.
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Newbie GT » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:58 pm

rooby wrote:
Newbie GT wrote:
Cheers Manaz like I said it really looks like there is not much advantage to a vf52 over stock


What did you expect, an extra 100kw?

The advantage is an extra 30ish kw.

If you want around 170 - 180 kw then stay with the stock turbo - and change things like exhaust, intercooler, tune.
If you want around 200 - 210 kw then get a the 52 (or alternatively some other turbo upgrade) - will still require mods like exhaust, intercooler, tune and fuel system components.
If you want more than that get an even bigger turbo.

Remember this is from somewhere around 135kw stock, so to go to 200 is a decent improvement.
You will most definitely feel the difference.


Cheers Rooby!

I think in the end I would miss the low end response from the vf46 power is on tap down low but saying that 400rpm is not much more for the vf52 to kick in..
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby garbo41610 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:06 pm

dr20t wrote:I'm putting this out there that until and unless you prove to me that you are actualy LISTENING to or READING the advice being provided, I will no longer offer any real form of advice to you.

If you merely read what has been said (heck even if you read what you have said) then you can answer every single one of your questions in this thread. You've answered them yourself many times over!

Why you troll much for?
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby Manaz » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:24 am

Newbie GT wrote:I think in the end I would miss the low end response from the vf46 power is on tap down low but saying that 400rpm is not much more for the vf52 to kick in..


There are things you can do to improve the spool of the VF52 (headers, exhaust, etc) to close the gap when compared to stock VF46 setup. And when you say "low end response", the VF46 isn't really coming on boost until 2500rpm or higher anyway (2800rpm rings a bell) - so below that, the engine will perform exactly the same.
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Re: Vf52 experiences vs 46

Postby peadya100 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:39 am

From memory upgrading the turbo inlet improved spool times by around 750rpm. Well thats what MSR told me, and after putting it on with a tune it definitely spooled up quickly.
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