Best Value Light Rebuilt Engine Formulae

[bigBADbenny]

Cheers! Its not surprising things get out of hand, its a natural inclination to go for the best of best.

That's half the fun of this thread, saying "no, we can make do with" because we're shooting for just a little more headroom than a completely stock setup.

I was very impressed with chubbs good experience and outcome. There's hope.

[KiDo_Tuning]

Keep in mind that engine wear is exponential to RPM so an engine revving to 6000rpm every day will last 1/4 of the time of an engine reving at 3000rpm

Simply the old rule applies

Fast - Cheap - Reliable
You can only ever pick 2.

[senator]

I can't see much DIY potential. Rods and pistons, sure ... but I wouldn't do them without bearings and although you can DIY bearings, the clearances won't be as consistent as a professional. It's a downward slope from there.

There's machine work and a whole range of things to consider if you are going bigger, but beyond bolting some heads onto a factory short motor, I see massive value in handing it to someone and relying on their expertise. At the very least, you know where to point the finger if things go wrong. DIY and everyone will be pointing at you (probably for good reason).

I don't like tuning engines that are built by someone other than Serge, but I do. A DIY engine is not something I'd want to touch unless I knew the owner very well.

If you have the time, space and inclination, then have a go. A bare block is about $900. I had dinner last night with a mate who is over $50k and 2 years into a "simple" project and about to put it up for sale for $15k. Happens all the time.

so your new engine cost you $15k plus are dinner for two

What people find hard to see is the cost involved for engine builders to have the right tools and jigs to machine blocks and heads….. then of course there is the experience of the machinist to get micron accuracy and right surface finishes.

[brainy]

There's some info in this thread already but having gone down this path as well, here's some questions that you should ask yourself first.

1. Why am I building my engine
2. What will i be doing with my car? How will it be driven? Daily? Stop/Start traffic? Quick at the lights takeoffs? Weekend thrashings? Track?
3. What range of rpm do i mostly drive in? Do i granny shift at 3000rpm for economy or do i let the engine work harder than that?
4. What power am I chasing? Do i really need that much power?
5. What's my budget?

Descriptions of answers:
1. Building it for fun? Have cash to burn? Have a problem and you need it fixed? Just want more power?
2. Depending how you drive depends on what complimentary parts you need to chase. Do you really need 300atw if all you do is stop/start traffic and that's it?
3. This is probably more in relation to what sort of supportive turbo you want to get. You want to make sure that you have boost in the range that you drive in. No point in going for a big turbo that spools late when you don't even drive there.
4. What figure are you looking at achieving? Will you be happy with that figure? Will you notice the difference between 220kw vs 250kw for instance?
5. Work out a budget and then expect to go over it. There's always something that you will miss and something that needs doing. The best way to gauge what sort of budget is required is to speak to your engine builder.

Find a builder who you are happy with and feel that you can maintain a relationship with. Do some research on the person and ask around. Also, before you go and buy random cheap part for your car and expect them to fit it for you, ask them what they recommend as you would expect this person to have built many engines before and can tell you why they recommend that part. They may also say it's a great option, or a waste of time, so best to ask anyway.

If you work out what you want to achieve, then you can work out a budget as well as the best way to go about it.

Good luck.

Otherwise, you can always DIY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gmtEQ1GpmA

[<GB>]

[quote="coyote"]

I think so, but that's a case of stooping to a commercial reality rather than the ideal way to go.

I'd never make a parts list. Have seen so many engines with the best parts let go because someone overlooked something. I'm not picking on GB, in fact I agree with what he's said in this thread, but his car when he bought it was a perfect example of how the result can be far less than the sum of the parts. A good builder can achieve the opposite result.

Choose your engine builder, give them a goal and a budget, then be prepared to compromise one or the other based on their advice.

I'm just lucky that a good mate is also one of the best builders of Subaru engines on the planet. We are working on an evil plan right now. Biggest problem is how to get my budget to match his goals! I'm happy being Captain Slow.

Yeah my cars has been a mine field but I brought it knowing the risks..

I personally feel that Subaru engines built up are not that good for $ to kw plus they are not as strong, people have all these high expectations of how much power they will make and ive seen lots not live up to it ! mine included I thought we would be 300atw on 98.

if anyone want to make 280-300 easy I would be doing it on e85, its a lot harder on 98 ha ha

[bigBADbenny]

Thanks! I promise to revise my homework and post some Best Value Light Rebuilt Engine Formulae soon.

[bigBADbenny]

Great myth busting article on the subject here:
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_11 ... ewall.html

As seen in this thread at Subyclub:
http://www.subyclub.com/topic/7712-best ... rbo-build/

Hypothetical:
If a new HG and upgrade studs runs at C$3K and,
in addition to doing a coolant pressure test,
we had a compression and leakdown test done,
which revealed probable ringland issues...
and assuming the bore scope revealed no major issues with the cylinder walls...
and since Cosworth pistons are "only" $870 rrp...

(Remembering this is not an over the top build: its a street build/best value alternative to a second hand engine or a new short block & using as many stock parts and factory tolerances as is appropriate.)

what exactly is required with getting upgrade "drop in" pistons installed?

[dr20t]

Let me give anyone looking to build an engine a hint

Look at the difference between ej207 pistons / fa pistons / other EJ pistons

[senator]

what exactly is required with getting upgrade "drop in" pistons installed?

1. Engine out
2. Strip engine
3. New gasket kits required
4. Close inspection of the bore….. if the engine has been stressed new block or sleeve it (insert $$$ here)
5. Measure (blue print) to find the best match off the shelf piston
6. You might as well clean/service heads…. All gasket and seals would be found in the kit mentioned above in step 3
7. Dis-assemble crank, rods, all bearings and pistons
8. Replace all bearing
9. Replace head studs
10. Reassemble engine
11. Replace all fluids
12. Tune if compression has changed.

My guess cost wise:
• $1500-2000 in labour alone
• $500 gasket kit complete
• $500 head studs
• $400 bearings
• $600-1000 drop in pistons
• $500 Head service
• $300 All fluids
• $1000 Tune

[bigBADbenny]

Thanks for the reality check.
I'll try to get this broken down into levels with some pricing estimates.
But as a general guide....

Level 1 HG & studs upgrade
Level 2 as above with drop-in pistons, bearings, heads service, factory clearances. At this point the block is split, opening more options.
Level 3 as above with closed/semi closed deck

Options: timing belt kit, OCV's, inlet cam gears, heads service, drilled crank.

After this you are probably looking at full monty builds with the works as outlined elsewhere.

[KiDo_Tuning]

Other option would be buy a forged shortblock from Rising Sun Subaru for around $3500 and sell off your old short block to someone wanting a rebuild block etc

[bigBADbenny]

http://risingsunsubaru.com.au/documents ... tBlock.pdf
Customer to supply short block.

I'm definitely considering some kind of step-up at timing belt service time
HG, pistons.... deck?
http://risingsunsubaru.com.au/documents ... tBlock.pdf

Celtics baby full monty
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem ... 0735882670

[dr20t]

Standard rods will be stronger than the entry level Manley or eagle ones

[senator]

Another builder/boxer specialist would be Serge from Flat 4 Performance, no fancy web site just contact details

http://www.truelocal.com.au/business/flat-4-performance/kedron

An absolute wealth of knowledge, with great contacts that delivered above and beyond what was required.

At the time I was shopping around Serge offered a number of different options which covered all power outputs from bullet proof daily options to some stupid power options for either E85 and 98.

Serge questioned what I wanted to achieve and then arranged all the parts I needed over the phone and shipped them direct to my builder, also provide plenty of answers to my million questions via phone.

Thanks to Coyote for this contact.

[kiahatsiu]

Surge would be the go.
Another 'just buy and drop in' option is http://www.blacktopperformance.com.au/i ... duct_id=24 .
Delete the 14mm head studs if you can. The rods will become an issue before the 14mm studs come into play, that said you would be doing well to bust those rods anyhow. Use your stocker 2.5 heads with some more aggressive cams and away you go.