How safe is it to modify an unopened engine?

[dr20t]

I know of 4 2.5 turbos at 240 plus and one 2.0 turbo at 260 plus - all unopened and all built by phat/g88

Look to owen's car for proof of the 240 plus for the Melbourne boys - and I can also tell you that this setup was down in two days which mick didn't get to put alot of his little tips and tricks into

The reason we don't mention names is these people prefer to remain anonymous and don't want to publicise their achievements for various reasons

But I can attest to these vehicles. As can senator, Jerome and many other members

A certain hid specialist may know a thing or too as well

[dr20t]

Also - look at Jerome's car. Which made 240kw atw on eflex albeit it had a quarter tank of 98 fuel so was closer to e55 than e70, so would more than likely make 255-260 atw with a full tank of eflex

His is auto, and we know autos eat a lot more power than manuals so if we assume a 10% variance if it were manual, that's 270-280kw atw on eflex. Take 20% off that, its 230 atw on 98

[bigBADbenny]

Keep it coming...
Owens did 220 on the RTR dyno, jus sayin...
Jerome's never really worked out as a complete package due to the auto issues and only did it for a year or so?
I appreciate the whole anonymity thing, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Not hook, line and sinker...
Personally I believe 170-220 is the sweet spot for unopened 2.5 Libs.
Remembering this is the "How safe is it to modify an unopened engine?" thread.
170 atw w/ pump n TBE through to $6-10K for 220 atw w/ that and med large turbo, IC, headers, injectors, lines, inlet, and boost control etc.

[dr20t]

Jerome's never really worked out as a complete package due to the auto issues and only did it for a year or so?.

I really dont want to start an argument here - but you're kidding right, Benny?

What has Jerome's gear shifting issue got to do with anything? It's a gearbox related issue *edit* - and I don't know what makes you say "only did it for a year or so" - as far as I'm aware Jerome hasn't said anything about it not going anymore or not surviving more than a year?

That's like saying if someone has a slipping clutch that its not really a package that worked well together and therefore not an accurate reflection of whether the unopened motor can handle the power

I appreciate what you're saying regarding sweet spot and I have also gone on the record in the past to say 220 or so atw on 98 and 250 on eflex should be the upper limit for unopened motors without always cringing coming out of a wot pull. So we are in agreeance that one shouldn't be too greedy.

Ill be pushing for 300 plus atw from mine - and mine is a 2.0 still with only upgraded head studs and headgaskets - the rest of the shortblock is all as it rolled out of factory.

But there is night and day difference between an ej255 (or 257 for that matter) and a jdm ej207.

My ej20y made 255 atw unopened with a pitted rod bearing which lasted 10,000kms. Obviously not ideal but I beat on that poor motor every day and two track days and over 6 drag racing meets with average of four runs each meet. I believe the only reason it let go was due to the dangerous pulse tune which caused my Iam to drop to 0.3 and audible pinging at 160,000kms which pitted the bearing although I thought the thicker oil I was using was dealing with it sufficiently. Plus it had done 202,000 hard kms before letting go.

So a healthy motor with say 100,000 on the clock should take 220-240 atw comfortably on eflex for at least 50,000kms but who can ever guarantee it?

There are dozens of stock ej255 owners who have done bottom ends due to flaws inthe engine from factory or poor maintenance. But god forbid if one of those owners was making 200 plus then it would automatically have been because of the power it was making, right?

Lets be fair here guys c'mon.

Mick

[bigBADbenny]

Well you said it yourself.
Yeah I'm not trying to start a fight at all.
Clearly I don't even care about numbers, but do care a lot about reliability and response.
I just think that its a little flippant to say, even once or twice, "several DD's w/ 240 plus on stock bottom ends for years" and to leave it at that.
Did Jerome's rig ever see more than one dyno as regards results? Certainly if youre going for it, his car was a possible exemplar, of what to do and on some regards what not to...

This is the "Board index ‹ Technical ‹ 2.5T engine specific" thread.
Maybe its very possible on exotic engine swapped hybrid 2.0L's, less so on stock 2.5L's.
Like I say I wish it was safely possible and to do it for under $5K as well

Its nothing to get exited or upset over, just looking for actual evidence.

[senator]

Keep it coming...
Owens did 220 on the RTR dyno, jus sayin...
Jerome's never really worked out as a complete package due to the auto issues and only did it for a year or so?
I appreciate the whole anonymity thing, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Not hook, line and sinker...
Personally I believe 170-220 is the sweet spot for unopened 2.5 Libs.
Remembering this is the "How safe is it to modify an unopened engine?" thread.
170 atw w/ pump n TBE through to $6-10K for 220 atw w/ that and med large turbo, IC, headers, injectors, lines, inlet, and boost control etc.

Ben

The first time I meet Michael aka Phat Gt now Garage 88 back in 2007 he just finished mods to a black 07 tb sti which went on to produce 250kw+ on 98, this car didn’t belong to a member and the owner didn’t want pictures of his car splashed all over the net, he was more than happy to take you for a spin and discuss the work completed.

Since 2008 I’ve counted 3 other long term members of this forum go down the same path with slightly different mods all producing 240kw+ on 98…….. Not every member on this forum is an active poster nor do they want to start and maintain a dick flexing (build thread), which are constantly being attacked by key board mechanics thinking they know better cause they have an internet connection and can dedicate this life to watching and reply to same thread.

I remember when I started my parting out for sale thread, many people doubted I actually had the parts and wanted to know why I didn’t have a “build thread”....... pure and simply I didn’t have the time, hence my why my car was only washed every three months, the day after BAS lodgement

I even know of member of this forum that shipped his car to Michael all the way from the Mexico border to have the same treatment, this member only knew Michael from being mentioned on this forum…. He did some background research and pulled the plug.

The Liberty scene here in NSW is more active in a face to face sort of way, most members here will meet weekly to get advice and also help out both new and old members….. we also have members like dr20t and Jerome which meet daily for completely other reasons.

The reason why I continue to make this statement about unopened engine is because there is no wizardry or witch craft behind getting the most out of a unopened engine, it been done and I’ve seen it many times. The only secret is baked beans and ………. Or if beans isn’t your first choice get someone that practices what he preaches to do the work for you.

I also agree that 170-220kw is a sweet spot for ej25t using standard location turbo mount and restrictive FMIC…….. most of the cars with these numbers are usually restricted by budget than their supporting mods.

Btw I pretty sure I remember seeing the same thread about 3 or 4 years ago question the exact same thing.

[Rome_BRZ]

Did Jerome's rig ever see more than one dyno as regards results? Certainly if youre going for it, his car was a possible exemplar, of what to do and on some regards what not to...

No, because from Day 1 I have preached that a dyno result is just a number, and can change on any given day and dyno. I have always said the quarter mile gives a more accurate indication of a cars power, as well as the actual driveability of the car. My car ran a 12.5 quarter mile with a split second pause before being able to shift into 2nd, trap speed was 114mph. This was also not on the finalised tune, which had the car pulling even harder. I believe a low 12 second pass or even 12 flat was certainly on the cards, particularly if I had of installed the bronze bushings from the states which would have allowed me to try launching the car at 4-4,500rpm rather than the 3,200-3,500 I had been launching it at previously.

My car probably did around 25,000kms on the E-flex set-up. This is after having done about 20,000 kms running the car untuned with a turbo back exhaust, with pod filter, and IAM down to 0.3 for god knows how long, and then having the full turbo set-up on P98 for one track day, a couple of national park runs and about 6,000kms of daily driving plus I think 2 drag nights. On the E-flex set-up I probably did 6 or 7 national park runs, plus all the daily driving, and 1 drag night. Those that know me also know I don't drive it like it's made of glass either. So my car was beat on pretty hard for an extended period of time and held up fine.

The only thing I would not have done in regards to my car is done all of that on an auto. If I had my time again I would have done it on a manual. For those wishing to do the same on an auto, I would suggest more research into using a 3 port solenoid as opposed to using an EBC with add-ons, or trialing each to compare. Unfortunately I changed my plans before I go to that stage.

The reality is, it is safe to modify an unopened engine, it just depends what your goals are and what you are trying to achieve. When you modify cars you have to be prepared to lose out. Yes you can do things to prevent this from happening but you have to be aware there is a risk you can blow something. I think if you are spending more time worrying about something going pop and monitoring every possible parameter and trying every possible safe guard possible, you are not spending enough time enjoying your car. So it is also important to have realistic expectations about what a stock block can achieve without having to be pedantic.

Lastly, my build thread is there open and plain for everyone to see, the first post is bare at the moment but will be updated within the next week or so. There is enough info in there to get someone started who is looking for a similar goal.

[bigBADbenny]

We're pretty much in agreement here then.

And thanks all for the info and apologies for the inquisition.

I'd add a decent sump, baffle and pickup to the not-so-mysterious formula too.

Remember kids, its only as safe as your tune, monitoring and preventative measures. (etc)

[dr20t]

We're pretty much in agreement here then.

And thanks all for the info and apologies for the inquisition.

I'd add a decent sump, baffle and pickup to the not-so-mysterious formula too.

Remember kids, its only as safe as your tune, monitoring and preventative measures. (etc)

Nothing wrong with the stock sump

I would agree with baffles and pickup though

[senator]

We're pretty much in agreement here then.

And thanks all for the info and apologies for the inquisition.

I'd add a decent sump, baffle and pickup to the not-so-mysterious formula too.

Remember kids, its only as safe as your tune, monitoring and preventative measures. (etc)

Nothing wrong with the stock sump

I would agree with baffles and pickup though

Did you 2 not learn anything…….. it’s the baked beans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Manaz]

We're pretty much in agreement here then.

And thanks all for the info and apologies for the inquisition.

I'd add a decent sump, baffle and pickup to the not-so-mysterious formula too.

Remember kids, its only as safe as your tune, monitoring and preventative measures. (etc)

Nothing wrong with the stock sump

I would agree with baffles and pickup though

I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that the pickup issue was fixed on later 4Gen Liberties.

I've got an MY09 - is the pickup something I still need to worry about? I'd rather fix the problem before it becomes a problem...

[bigBADbenny]

You'll know if the oil light stays on for iirc +15 seconds at startup.

[kiahatsiu]

Good day to you all. I thought I might wade in here. I agree with most things that have been said with respect to 220kw on 98 and 250 on e85 being safe.
A fair few ej255s in SEQ ran email e85 tunes and lifted heads pretty quickly running 24 psi. One example was running a vf52 and the other a GTPS02something something. Both went well for a period time, then began to push coolant. The same cars ran 20+ psi on 98 for some months before seeing the light of e85 and then, like Hitler, getting the power lust. There was an ej207 that ran 114.1 mph on e85 that recently died, but that was due to lack of maintenance on the new owners part.
Now from experience: my car runs and ej20x, I think the y was for autos. It has been running over 180kw at the wheels for 2.5 years and 60000km. It has been through two turbo set ups, running between 18 to 24 psi on e85, and well, it has been constantly thrashed through the hills. I do nebo runs at least twice a week, and whilst, I don't really exceed the speed limit, the car spends a lot of time on boost. Now with 185k on the clock it doesn't use a drop of coolant and uses maybe 200ml or oil in 500km.
So, in short: yes, modify away, choose parts carefully, choose the best tuners you can find, and be prepared for things to go wrong.

[bigBADbenny]

Wonderful advice, albeit 2.0 centric

Anyone want to weigh in on how delicate the 2.5t's are? You know - the stock pistons thing? The elephant in the room? Like which years maybe? Unisia pistons?

N00bs need to know, IMHO stock 2.5's are delicate in some regards and must not be service or tune & etc. abused.

There's a rouges gallery of things to be aware of!








I just feel there's way more BUILT big power 2.5's than big power STOCK 2.5's and this is for various good reasons.

[coyote]

There are two people in the country I would get to build a fast Subaru - Serge LaMonaca and Michael May.

I have a fair idea what Michael does with his cars as whenever we speak we are almost always thinking exactly the same thing.

I do not doubt the quoted power figures, nor that others cannot achieve them with similar reliability.