Running poorly after starting

Posts specific to the 2.0 litre Turbo engine

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:45 pm

RX25SE wrote:Did you end up eliminating a single cylinder missfire and check for codes?

Alternator output and battery condition may cause ecu issues.


I pulled a plug off one of the injectors today while it was running, doesn't sound anything like the issue I'm having so I guess I'm ruling out a single cylinder misfire? Still no codes. Have checked alternator output and it seems to be fine, battery isn't the newest but its sitting at an acceptable voltage range while the car is running and it lasts a few weeks between starts without issues so it can't be that bad.

bigBADbenny wrote:Sharpie’s UEC fuel rail & injector soak.

This is more relevant, according to the source, to pre 05 cars.
Worth a try though.

Also, can you please post a learning view, with at least 20km of driving post ecu reset? (Ecu reset not required though)

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=36178&p=446851#p446851


...


I've had the injectors tested and cleaned, so what exactly is the aim with the UEC fuel rail and injector soak? Surely nothing builds up before the injectors that needs to be removed?

I'm not sure I could make a 20km trip at the moment. I limped it home from work the other day and it was loosing power and lurching almost every minute or so, to the point where I couldn't even maintain a steady speed.
I'm going to spend some time over the weekend testing sensors that I haven't yet investigated. I would like to know how the oil is getting into my wiring loom, so I'm aiming to at least find the source of that in the hopes that there's a faulty sensor of some sort at the end of it. If I don't find anything this weekend I'll get the car back together on Sunday and take it for a quiet logging drive that night and post up the logs.

I'll pull the SD for my dash cam tonight and see if I've got a recording of what the issue sounds like. My guess is that its probably not that audible through the camera's microphone but I guess its worth a shot.
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby Stifull » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:51 pm

So...no "codes" using some sort of device or... no CEL ????? My wife's rex never gets a CEL because previous owner disconnected it because the divorced downpipe doesn't have a hole for one of the sensors so the CEL was always on..
Current Subarus
07 Liberty GT (mine) 180kwt on 16lb
98 WRX Club Spes 2 with 2.5ltr upgrade(mine) sub 14 sec
99 Ver 6 Sti also with 2.5ltr upgrade (son) sub 14 sec
02 WRX Bugeye Hatch lots of goodies(wife)
09 Non Turbo Impreza(daughter#4)
Previous
98 GC8 WRX Hatch(daughter#1)
02 Bugeye WRX (daughter#2)
User avatar
Stifull
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:30 pm
Location: Brisbane
Car: '07 Liberty GT '98 WRX CS2 2.5ltr

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:17 pm

Stifull wrote:So...no "codes" using some sort of device or... no CEL ????? My wife's rex never gets a CEL because previous owner disconnected it because the divorced downpipe doesn't have a hole for one of the sensors so the CEL was always on..

No codes, checking with my Vag Com cable and rom raider. Have also checked and the check engine light does infact work haha
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:13 pm

The original intent of the fuel rail/injector flush was more just the rails part, without running any uec through the injectors: according to Steve.

It was a fix they developed for prefl GT idle issues, where excessive idle corrections were evident in learning view.

It certainly can’t do any harm if you follow procedures.

On another subject, you mentioned oil in one of the harnesses, the one under the tmic...
I’m wanting to look which one it is in the FSM, but iirc its for the throttlebody.
Another way to check is to log throttle plate angle vs pedal angle, if I remember correctly.

Its worth checking your exhaust avcs solenoids, visually, for oiliness.

Oil can leak from either the ocv o-rings or the exhaust ocv manifolds where they’re attached to the head.
The oil can travel right up the loom and contaminate plugs all the way to the ecu interfering with continuity.

Also, download the Learning View app and make one, and post or link it here, please.
Just don’t make it after an ecu reset or there will be no learning.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=romr ... ent=safari
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:14 pm

The oil was in the large bulkhead connector, right In the middle of the car below the intercooler. Think I found the source though, it's a sensor one the bottom front of the engine (drivers side) which I think must be a cam sensor of some sort? Found a bunch of oil that I couldn't previously see hidden down there. I've cleaned the sensor up and tested it, it's reading about 2k ohms on my metre so I assume it's good. Not sure if the oil is leaking through the sensor or from the o-ring but I'm going to clean everything up down there, put it back together and see if the problem persists. If that proves to be the problem I'll replace this sensor to stop the oil from leaking back all over everything again. The oil could also be coming from the tappet cover gasket I guess, but I can't see any signs of a leak from the top or side of the engine, and I'm not really keen on taking the exhaust manifold off without good reason. I'll give the fuel rail soak a go too. I have a screen capture of the learning views from rom raider. This was from before I did the first reset two weeks ago, would that be good enough?
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:17 pm

Okay so I put it back together after a clean and it was still running terribly. I got my old man to come along for a ride with me late last night while it was playing up and he's confirmed what I thought, which is it feels like it's running horribly lean. Out of interest I reset the ecu again and left the 02 sensor unplugged and I've done about 20 km since and it's running nicely. I've fitted the standalone 02 sensor back onto the car and I will test drive like this and see what the AFR looks like when cruising, then I'll re-connect the 02 sensor and watch what happens as it starts learning the values again.

I only replaced the 02 sensor recently (in the last 6 months or so) and I've tried multiple different MAF sensors on the car since it started playing up last week with no change to how it runs. I'll have to see if I can find my old 02 sensor. When I replaced it I was chasing a different problem and it didn't make a difference from memory so the old one is probably still fine.

I will attempt to make a log once I reconnect the 02 sensor but I'm worried that driving it like this is going to cause damage so I don't know if I can manage 20 minutes...
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:01 pm

Ok, that does sound like the exhaust avcs oil leak issue.

I’ll dig up some pages from the FSM that explain the parts.
FSM links are in my signature, btw, full explainer regarding.

You also want to log inlet and exhaust vvt angles to see if the left and right angles are in sync.

At this point an inlet pressure test is a good idea as part of general maintenance.
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:34 pm

I pressure tested the intake earlier in the week. Found a small leak but sorted that out and it's holding pressure well now so we can rule that out.

I did briefly check intake and exhaust avcs angles earlier in the week, but I only used the graph function of rom raider and just watched to see what they looked like in comparison to the "motor load" value. They looked good to me, but perhaps logging them while driving will make it more obvious.

There is a bit of oil around under the engine. Not sure where it's coming from but thought it looked to be the hose that runs to the oil filter mount. It's not enough that it drips on the ground, but it's definitely coming from somewhere.

I'll attempt some logging tonight.
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:16 pm

Avcs angles are just another thing to tick off a long list.

Here’s the cylinder head diagram for 2.0T 5mt rhd...
15, 17 & 18 are the exhaust avcs parts, gasket, manifold and oil control valve...
http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/e ... tration_1/

If you have oil in a plug in the engine bay, it might help to also check the ecu plugs in the passenger footwell.

And yes any LV would be good to post...
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:33 pm

Here’s my incrementally updated avcs diagnosis guide: logging is the key.

Avcs checks.

Log avcs vvt left and right angles with Btssm or Romraider at 1700-2000rpm in neutral and in gear on the freeway, look for vvt angle oscillation, lag or inactivity.

My theory is that slight differences in the left and right avcs oil feed pressures, combined with the self calibrating nature of the avcs system cause one side, usually the LHS, to become overdriven and eventually fail.

The beginnings of this failure is seen as left to right angle lag.

The intermediate stage is one side wildly oscillating whilst the other side operates correctly.

The terminal stage is one side becomes inactive at which point the avcs system deactivates completely.

All stages can be encountered without triggering a cel.

My solution is to start with two new avcs solenoids and then to periodically swap them side to side (eg at 50k mi) or when significant angle lag becomes noticeable in logging.

If either issue is revealed, swap avcs oil control solenoid side to side to see if the issue follows the affected solenoid.
If so, replace both ocv solenoids.

If the issue doesn’t follow, check the ocv oil supply banjo bolts for blocked screens. The filters can be very deep in the banjo bolt hole and or broken up. Use a sharp toothpick to fish them out.

Very rarely, an avcs cam gear may be jammed with debris, or via incorrect installation, usually in this instance it will be locked at a particular angle as revealed by logging.

Go for the easiest tests (logging) first, if all results are negative, eg you have avcs inactivity which does NOT follow the OCV side to side swap, pull the crank and cam sensors to check for contamination by metal particles on the sensor face or check for oil supply issues at the banjo bolt filters.

For dual avcs prefl 2.0t, check if the exhaust avcs solenoids are leaking, the loom can suck oil all the way back to the ecu plug, causing multiple issues.

Log per cylinder misfires.
If misfiring, check spark plug condition and swap around coil pack on the affected cylinder to check if the fault is cylinder or coil pack related, or coil pack loom plug related (usually broken plug clip).

Get an LV (learning view) whilst you’re at it.
LV will reveal inlet leaks, IAM (low IAM = failsafe mode).
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:07 pm

Okay, so I managed to get a log done. I ran the car for a few minutes with the 02 sensor connected before I started the log. I also had my separate 02 sensor hooked up so I could monitor what it was reporting. Within the first minute or so of driving after connecting the 02 sensor (before I even started the log) the car was already playing up again. My sensor was reading off the charts lean pretty much the whole time that was happening. After a few more minutes of driving stuff started to settle down but my separate 02 sensor was still reading lean a lot of the time. Towards the end of the drive it felt like things were going pretty well however my separate 02 sensor was still reading lean a lot of the time, even with a small amount of throttle applied. It did however come good sometimes when cruising unlike the beginning of the drive.

Here's the learning view from after tonights drive. I didn't spend much/any time at full throttle so I'm not surprised there's no corrections at the top of the chart yet.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wE81vJ ... sp=sharing

And here's the log files. Sorry about the split, that was either me turning off the AC or some sort of timer running out? Either way, we only missed about a minute of sitting at traffic lights.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1otClgr ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N29kyb ... sp=sharing

Keen to hear what you think!
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:48 pm

So far, all AVCS parameters can be switched off in your logs: it does not appear to be an issue.

Less parameters is better for log resolution too.

I need to do more research but it looks to be fuel supply or inlet vacuum related.
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:40 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:So far, all AVCS parameters can be switched off in your logs: it does not appear to be an issue.

Less parameters is better for log resolution too.

I need to do more research but it looks to be fuel supply or inlet vacuum related.


Yeah, that was the impression I got too. I'm certain there's no vacuum leaks now, I was able to pressurise the whole intake system and it held 5 psi for a minute or two no worries.

I'll grab a can of the upper engine cleaner and do the fuel rail soak on the off-chance it helps. I'm considering trying to test the injectors again myself, I feel like if one of them isn't responding quickly it could quite easily not allow fuel to flow on lower duty cycles whilst still function well enough at a higher duty cycle for the car to run fine when I put my foot in it. I'd have to look at the specs to see frequency range they operate on but I'm sure I could whip up something to drive them pretty easily for a test.

For now I'll throw the fuel pressure gauge back on the car just to confirm that's still not an issue and maybe trace back the wiring for the injectors to find what powers them.
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby dmcke5 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:49 pm

Then again, it doesn't feel like it's just one cylinder, it feels like it's all of them. Plus if it was a power supply issue surely it would happen with the 02 sensor disconnected too?
dmcke5
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 pm

Re: Running poorly after starting

Postby bigBADbenny » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:23 pm

Are you on the original fuel pump and in tank fuel filter? At what km is the car?

Its also worth just pulling up the back seat, remove the access cover and pull the pump and sender loom plug to check for burnt pins.

Also you can do some logs with per cylinder misfire count, just select the parameters for each cylinder, log it around the block, just to see if any results...
User avatar
bigBADbenny
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Collingwood, Melbourne
Car: MY07 GT-B 6MT OBP Wagon
Real name: Ben Richards
Profile URL: http://tinyurl.com/agvbzop

PreviousNext

Return to 2.0T engine specific

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests