My H6 transformed

Posts specific to the 3.0 litre NA H6 engine

Re: My H6 transformed

Postby alexeiwoody » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:35 pm

Anyone who doesn't log their car and says theyre happy with the tune - ignorance is bliss.

Just like eating lots of cake and saying how much better it tastes compared to plain bread, then a year later wondering why you got fat.

If your car drives faster, it doesnt make it healthy. If your fuel economy hasn't changed - it's got very little to do with your brand of petrol and very much to do with your tune. You need a wideband oxygen sensor to get real fuel economy gains - didnt your tuner tell you that?

Matt says the tune will pay for itself in 3-6 months from petrol savings. My first tune with him jumped to 19l/100km. I thought that was normal and left it at that. Turns out he stuffed up and I never knew. The more I learned, the more sections of the tune I found wrong. Make sure your tuner delivers on ALL his promises, it's really not asking a lot on a near stock car.

Matt can definitely tune. But it's the amount of mistakes/accidental stuff ups/getting distracted that are usually there that are the problem. And there will be at least two mistakes for every tune! Like winning a lottery :) can range between shite fuel economy to having annoying car lurching boost spikes to having detonation inside the engine you cant see which wears away at the engine until it pops a year later. All easily avoided by logging the car.

Ignorance is bliss guys
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby <GB> » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:57 pm

jay.ritchie wrote:I've got a thread about the timing chain tension failing.
There's a vid there with sound. Try and compare it.

Mine WAS occurring before and after the tune.

Why didn't u fix the chain before tuning? By not fixing it u are asking for trouble ....
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby alexeiwoody » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:16 pm

This is exactly what bugs me. Matt doesn't do a mechanical check of the car.

7 months into the tune turns out my maf sensor was always dirty hence tune was out hence engine was knocking, and matt never asked about the maf sensor until I started logging and asked him why I have knock.

Mechanical check needs to come first. Otherwise you're just hoping $400 will magically keep your car healthy since the tuner didnt say anything bad.

And my personal favourite - giving customers their before and after power figure from a street tune. Without a dyno. And the numbers are always exaggerated. It's like a bad joke.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:20 am

These posts are a very relevant wake up call for those considering tuning.

As its quite difficult to ensure a stock car with any sort of K's on it is 100% mechanically sorted, I do agree that learning to log and analyse logs is a very good idea before proceeding with a tune.
As would using a wideband...
I thought having an ecuds would suffice but tactrix and logger has much more scope.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby jay.ritchie » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:02 am

<GB> wrote:
jay.ritchie wrote:I've got a thread about the timing chain tension failing.
There's a vid there with sound. Try and compare it.

Mine WAS occurring before and after the tune.

Why didn't u fix the chain before tuning? By not fixing it u are asking for trouble ....


Because I had no idea what it was. Just sounded like a rattle. Could have been anything.
As soon as it was diagnosed as the tensioner I got it fixed straight away
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby Robbks » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:59 am

alexeiwoody wrote:This is exactly what bugs me. Matt doesn't do a mechanical check of the car.

7 months into the tune turns out my maf sensor was always dirty hence tune was out hence engine was knocking, and matt never asked about the maf sensor until I started logging and asked him why I have knock.

Mechanical check needs to come first. Otherwise you're just hoping $400 will magically keep your car healthy since the tuner didnt say anything bad.

And my personal favourite - giving customers their before and after power figure from a street tune. Without a dyno. And the numbers are always exaggerated. It's like a bad joke.


I have no affiliation with anyone and I realise that there may be legitimate problems with anyones tunes. (i've seen the problems from lots of the big boys)
but YOU have to take responsibility for the heath of YOUR car before the tune.
New plugs, new filters, upper engine cleaner, oil change, MAF clean, check coolant levels, condition of your tyres/ clutch/ brakes (important safety for road tuning)
It's common knowledge that MAF sensors need cleaning.
When tuning, if the MAF is outputting reasonably correct values, the tuner can not know the state of health of the MAF sensor. they ALL read slightly different, and as long as it's within the acceptible margins of error, it's not the tuner's responsibility.
If you want a full mechanical check with your tune, don;t go to a one man band tuner (like Matt, Edward for XRT, etc) go to MSR and pay him the $1200 for a full workover and tune.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. you're paying a Tuner to tune. not to check that your poorly maintained boonger has all it's vac hoses in good condition.

As for power output on the road versus a dyno.
Engine HP is easy to work out. as long as you know how much fuel and air is going through the car and you have a good understanding of the engines VE (Volumetric Efficiency) you can get a very close calculation of engine HP.
And a few simple 0-100 runs (or 40-100) and timing them, take into account the vehicles weight and approximate drag coefficient you can get a good, ATW power figure.
That's a true measure of a car's actual on-road performance, not some derived figure from a machine that controls how fast the engine can speed up.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby alexeiwoody » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:03 am

Im sorry mate im at work at the moment, but I have a questuon for you.

If it's such common knowledge, do you think the tuner should at least ask if and advise the car be ready for a tune? And if it isn't explain the dangers. I've seen many tuners do this, but one. No points for guessing who.

You know quite a bit about tuning, and i respect you for it. IMO that doesn't quite mean you know how much the average punter on here knows about tuning and engines. I certainly was a total noob and just believed all the promises made. But have seen a numbe of very very knowledgeable people also get dicked around.

Btw a dyno helps to flush out certain mechanical problems with a car that would never show from just inspection or road tune. Definitely better than road by itself. And as for power....let's just say we all know how dynos work - it's more the proven track record of telling customers blown up power figures that im pointing out. Like I was told I had a 30% increase in power from stock car just from re tune.

And road dynos are easy to manipulate. You forgot to mention that.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby Robbks » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:34 am

alexeiwoody wrote:If it's such common knowledge, do you think the tuner should at least ask if and advise the car be ready for a tune?


My thoughts on this.
If you've found people like Matt, Edward, Bruce, you no doubt have the knowledge and skills to seek such people out over the interent.
With that knowledge comes the ability to inform yourself TOTALLY about what needs to and should be done prior to embarking on a very critical modification to your car.
I spent months researching ECU options, tuners, upgrades to do first and precautions to take for my first tuned car.
I didn't just wire $400 to some bloke over the internet.

i'm not weighting into specifics with any problems and who it's affected. I don't care really
the information is there, don;t be ignorant, go and get informed.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:28 pm

I started a guide to tuning for n00bs on the forum - this needs a lot more "preparation for tuning" info added for sure, and in different sections to cover issues specific to each engine type!
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby alexeiwoody » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:58 pm

Let me get this straight - youre saying a tuner can say and do anything, including take advantage of people, because the customer should be better informed anyway. I don't think you believe that. You should answer my question properly instead of basically repeating what I said in my very first post.

Youre right only about the need to get informed. My post on the previous page was about how cruicial it is. So you don't need to tell me.

And this is not quite the way you presented. Bruce and eric - may be hard to find and took some experience to do so. But Kido tuning is all over this forum selling and promoting the road tune as a finished product. I see no warning or disclaimer saying to learn how to service, check, log and be partially aware of how to tune. Matt is selling his product. A complete tune. With the general 'tuning is great, easy, cheap and we'll give you a safe tune' comments/feel about everything. No mechanical advice was given to me.

Critical modification - hmmm I don't think you were ever sold to by the tuner im talking about. (Before you knew how to check tunes, obviously you wouldn't fall for marketing now because you know better). If you have, your attitude is very interesting lol. And if you haven't then you might want to take a step back and not comment on things you personally haven't experienced. I said I respect you for learning about tuning, that doesn't give you insight into what kido tuning customers think or how the sales process works. And youre lumping all tuners together in your reply, we're talking about one specific tuner here. I say that because of the marketing involved.

Most begginer people who see how easy and simple it is - go for it. Why get informed if the tuner says they'll make your car better? And look they have happy customers on the forum!

From your answer I gather you're saying it's ok for the tuner to do as they please without giving warning. Because it's all the customers' fault if something goes wrong. Do you know why product disclaimers exist? Because people usually don't have time to research every last product they buy. When a vendor markets a complete product they take on responsibility at the very least to inform of the dangers involved.

I take it you agree on the road dyno not being a trust worthy source? Especially in the wrong hands?

After all is said and done it comes to the quality of the tune and mistakes in the tune, only logging and getting informed will help. And tuners should be responsible for looking after their customers.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:26 pm

thats the exact reason for the The Pre-Tune Checklist for Tune n00bs! ^^^

Could members please add their esteemed wisdom for the benefit of all?
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby Mateusz » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:34 pm

<GB> wrote:Was it making the timing chain noise before? Have u checked the lv?


Yeah I've heard it before the tune also. Under constant acceleration there is no rattle though, only when going off and on throttle. I was testing it today in neutral just revving it and every time I revved the engine it would rattle very briefly so I'm pretty sure it is just timing chain noise. Sorry, but what's lv?

Reading all this has me paranoid now haha. I spent months researching tunes and reading everything on these forums regarding the KiDo tunes, and eventually thought I'd give it a go. If I knew for sure that the tune is completely safe, I'd be very satisfied with everything. Now after reading about customers previous problems I'm worried about what could go wrong in the future. If I had read everything I just did I wouldn't have gone ahead with the tune to be honest. For now, I love driving my car :D
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:02 pm

alexeiwoody wrote:This is exactly what bugs me. Matt doesn't do a mechanical check of the car.

7 months into the tune turns out my maf sensor was always dirty hence tune was out hence engine was knocking, and matt never asked about the maf sensor until I started logging and asked him why I have knock.

Mechanical check needs to come first. Otherwise you're just hoping $400 will magically keep your car healthy since the tuner didnt say anything bad.

And my personal favourite - giving customers their before and after power figure from a street tune. Without a dyno. And the numbers are always exaggerated. It's like a bad joke.


Your MAF was fine on the first revision, knock free but obviously when your sucking down more air with more boost, the MAF gets dirty a lot quicker post tune. As we know, your car on the dyno was knock free but picks up noise post tune quite easily. Fuel economy was related to what error?
I look for something else when true knock occurs... EGT change on the O2 sensor which shows up as cooler EGT's, log the front O2 Heater Resistance as it will show you a trend on EGT once you know what to look for ;)
There is plenty of people who have had dyno tunes and had problems... some they are not even aware of. I recently retuned a dyno tuned an auto, left the existing tune in place but lifted the DBW requested torque values in the final column only to get more transmission lock up to show the previous tune was slipping below 5000rpm, so no more flare above 5000rpm and peak power dropped on the dyno since the transmission was not catching up. We all know the problems with the 5EAT and their lack of torque transfer is publicised over the US forums... should everyone who has a tune asking for more boost but not enough Requested Torque get a free transmission rebuild? We know Marks supercharged H6 was slipping on stock RT values...

I still know plenty of people who have had engines go bang on a dyno after the dyno tuner has done a mechanical check of the vehicle, some more in one year than I have had issues with in 15+ years doing this.

H6's are inherently noisey, they run lean on the O2 sensor by design and are commonly on -3 to -5% in the D range so run LEANER. 5% is 0.7 AFR leaner. The other A/B/C values are the values required to maintain stoich trims. Since the H6 has two O2 sensors, the RomRaider MAF tab will not allow MAF scaling for Bank 2, so O2 sensors are the best feedback point for the tune.
The H6 engine hydraulic tensioner has to control the AVCS A to AVCS B transition point which is the common noise(or the VVL activation point above 4400rpm) so the engine oil pressure has to transition from 20degrees to 35+ degrees quite quickly which is where the tensioner, even on stock tune is placed under quite a large amount of stress which makes the engine . Seen plenty of tuners have flat AVCS to combat this noise which ruins the driveability. Others pump fuel in and still get the noise! If you pull 6 degrees or timing and add 0.5 AFR of fuel and the noise is still there... is it knock or is it mechanical noise? We found that with your tune, added fuel and pulled the same amount of timing as what was being pulled in LV and yet it still pulled timing. That is the issue with tuning via LV
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby alexeiwoody » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:48 pm

Fuel economy error - after my first road tune with you my fuel economy jumped from 14l/100km to 19l/100km, on a stock car. During our second meet for a retune you asked how my fuel economy was - I’m glad you did btw - I said it was pretty disappointing. You got a funny look on your face, did something on your laptop, flashed the new tune and my economy dropped to combined 12l/100km. Same hard driving, same roads, same fuel. Seems like a big mistake to me. Or is there a highly technical explanation along the lines that you don't make mistakes?

When I got my tactrix and started logging the car I found knock. Contacted matt. He sent me a revision adding more fuel at the top rev range – to battle ‘the humidity we’re having’ – a total bs reason as any tuner or mechanic will know. And matt if you say that’s a legit reason – why didn’t you give me a tune that was already designed for hot, humid, any other weather? Seems a bit unsafe then.

Two revisions later – matt said that maybe I had a dirty maf.

You can’t say the sensor was clean because you didn’t check. Maf sensor was not cleaned for at least 6 months prior to tune. As already discussed here – you can’t tell from logs how clean it is until it’s filthy. And even then it took you two revisions, which could have all been avoided.

Seems very ignorant to tune people’s cars without even asking what they’ve done to prepare.

Why are you selling road tunes if now you say there’s an issue with tuning by logging/lv? If I read that correctly – you just wrote that a laptop without a dyno - wouldn’t be able to differentiate if there’s real knock or not. I know you’re going to say that you do check for knock and that if it’s clean then it’s safe. But two/three pulls on the road, without even a third gear pull (on 5EAT auto needs to go up to 170km in 3rd, which I had to figure out myself because you never told me first 2 meets) – are they a true indication of all driving conditions/weather/top end issues? A good tune needs a dyno. Then a road to tidy up. Your words too btw.

Your three main successful, happy customers on here, Rome_sti, Dr0t and chaotic – all dyno tuned and wouldn’t have it any other way. Dr0t has said he would never even think of just having a road tune alone. Yet, you market it.

In summary, matt, I believe you can tune, you certainly know a lot. I was quite happy with the dyno tune, had only small annoying issues. I keep repeating that. The methods and what you don’t tell your customers – that’s what’s not good enough. It’s dangerous, and if there was a duty of care – you wouldn’t be meeting it.

I’ve since changed tuners, because my tuner now doesn’t guess at the problem – send me two tune revisions, and then when it fails, asks to check mechanical – he asks first, then after I check, he changes the tune. He also replies within an hour, two tops. Not a day, or two or never, hint hint. When my IAM dropped to 0, my knock through the roof and my ecu was telling me the car’s about to blow up, how long did it take you to send me a copy of the tune – and I asked 3 times over a week,by sms, email and in public. Nearly two weeks? Just to email an existing file off your laptop??

Our engine’s too expensive to wait around until the tuner decides to reply, because he’s too busy on the forums posting about his amazing anti slip 5eat lock up and how the other tuners aren’t as good. :shock:

Most of these issues could have been avoided if someone didn't market a road tune as a good complete tune.
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Re: My H6 transformed

Postby KiDo_Tuning » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:17 pm

No 'mistake' but strange enough... I added fuel to the OL Fuel table making it run richer with more WGDC preload(see Shav's 3 port thread for the benefits of preload) yet Timing, Boost etc were all the same... and fuel economy improved but getting fuel economy right is actually quite difficult. Airflow delta comes down to the driver, I watched your driving style and logged the learnt throttle maps(they are stored in RAM, just like FLKC) you used and maybe you were just nervous having me in the car

In the absence of any other issues previously, knowing that stock tune VERY well, heatsoak was the only possible explanation for the FLKC that was occuring since temps that extreme as our recent summer are rare to get an opportunity to log with, yet when that fuel was added along with timing pulled... the same amount of FLKC existed hence the MAF became an option along with wastegate chatter. See my previous comments about determining real knock from false knock :) So we spend time on the dyno and sure enough, no knock recorded on knock ears yet gets FLKC occuring on the road.
MAF sensor is easy enough to determine as being clean based on 3 determining factors... g/sec at peak torque and peak rpm, EGT's and Injector Pulsewidth which is why I use EcuEdit, it loads a known profile based on the Ecu ID to see 'out of range' values. The colours on the logging screen mean something ;) As I said, I can monitor EGT's with the laptop which is a knock indicator(guess what I was looking at when your mystery FLKC kept on showing up on on last road tune) and even Dan@RTR was impressed with the software! With your intermittent ECU drop outs post tune, is that something that I could look out for during our stock road tune when it was not being experienced then? The ECU drop out was not related to the tune(just like the AVCS issue is not tune related)

There is definitely more than 3, obviously nothing as 'extreme' but for example, mongmong had a dyno tune done and then I did a road tune... quite a few have had full dyno tunes done previously... yet a simple road tune yielded better/smoother results. I have diagnosed boost leaks via e-tunes and tunes in person, something that a pre-tune checklist is unlikely to uncover!

I keep my tune backups on my home server and you contacted me while I was in Sydney, I usually only keep the last 2 revisions on the laptop just in case they are needed. Yes, I get up to hundreds of emails a week across 3 email addresses so it can take time for a reply, my wife prioritises urgent responses as best she can!

alexeiwoody wrote:Fuel economy error - after my first road tune with you my fuel economy jumped from 14l/100km to 19l/100km, on a stock car. During our second meet for a retune you asked how my fuel economy was - I’m glad you did btw - I said it was pretty disappointing. You got a funny look on your face, did something on your laptop, flashed the new tune and my economy dropped to combined 12l/100km. Same hard driving, same roads, same fuel. Seems like a big mistake to me. Or is there a highly technical explanation along the lines that you don't make mistakes?
When I got my tactrix and started logging the car I found knock. Contacted matt. He sent me a revision adding more fuel at the top rev range – to battle ‘the humidity we’re having’ – a total bs reason as any tuner or mechanic will know. And matt if you say that’s a legit reason – why didn’t you give me a tune that was already designed for hot, humid, any other weather? Seems a bit unsafe then.
Two revisions later – matt said that maybe I had a dirty maf.
You can’t say the sensor was clean because you didn’t check. Maf sensor was not cleaned for at least 6 months prior to tune. As already discussed here – you can’t tell from logs how clean it is until it’s filthy. And even then it took you two revisions, which could have all been avoided.
Seems very ignorant to tune people’s cars without even asking what they’ve done to prepare.
Why are you selling road tunes if now you say there’s an issue with tuning by logging/lv? If I read that correctly – you just wrote that a laptop without a dyno - wouldn’t be able to differentiate if there’s real knock or not. I know you’re going to say that you do check for knock and that if it’s clean then it’s safe. But two/three pulls on the road, without even a third gear pull (on 5EAT auto needs to go up to 170km in 3rd, which I had to figure out myself because you never told me first 2 meets) – are they a true indication of all driving conditions/weather/top end issues? A good tune needs a dyno. Then a road to tidy up. Your words too btw.
Your three main successful, happy customers on here, Rome_sti, Dr0t and chaotic – all dyno tuned and wouldn’t have it any other way. Dr0t has said he would never even think of just having a road tune alone. Yet, you market it.
In summary, matt, I believe you can tune, you certainly know a lot. I was quite happy with the dyno tune, had only small annoying issues. I keep repeating that. The methods and what you don’t tell your customers – that’s what’s not good enough. It’s dangerous, and if there was a duty of care – you wouldn’t be meeting it.
I’ve since changed tuners, because my tuner now doesn’t guess at the problem – send me two tune revisions, and then when it fails, asks to check mechanical – he asks first, then after I check, he changes the tune. He also replies within an hour, two tops. Not a day, or two or never, hint hint. When my IAM dropped to 0, my knock through the roof and my ecu was telling me the car’s about to blow up, how long did it take you to send me a copy of the tune – and I asked 3 times over a week,by sms, email and in public. Nearly two weeks? Just to email an existing file off your laptop??
Our engine’s too expensive to wait around until the tuner decides to reply, because he’s too busy on the forums posting about his amazing anti slip 5eat lock up and how the other tuners aren’t as good. :shock:
Most of these issues could have been avoided if someone didn't market a road tune as a good complete tune.
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