3.0L H6 on E85 = WINNING

[alexeiwoody]

Ah bugger. So your engine was rebuilt or completely new engine?

Rebuilt and blueprinted for better clearances and quality of build than oem, with only the original crank and block itself still remaining from the old engine. It can take some (a lot of )punishment now, and some custom age ARP head studs to keep the heads from lifting on e85 again.

[cynner]

Chatted to Matt (Kido) - apparently providing the tune is kept under 17.6psi e85 is safe on stock engine. Blown engines are usually from too much boost and e85...

[alexeiwoody]

Chatted to Matt (Kido) - apparently providing the tune is kept under 17.6psi e85 is safe on stock engine. Blown engines are usually from too much boost and e85...

I was running 18psi.

As bass_straightener once said to me, people will tell you to go for anything when it's not their car

You'll find a quote from kido matt saying that boost is only a measure of restriction in the inlet and doesn't lift heads . I'm fairly certain he ran head studs and new HG on his flex fuel foz. And now he has a new engine for it.


It's not a proven fact that e85 will blow things up, but have a chat to MSR. My own tuner thinks it's fine, if controlled. But the tolerances for error become much smaller since you're running more ignition timing and your power and torque imcrease. The older the engine the higher the risk too. IMO the age of the engine is probably the biggest reason for HG failure and e85. Those oem headbolts aren't only old, they're a weak design too.

It "should" be ok and you obviously have your heart set on it. Just keep in mind the real life experiences people have had with it here. Do your own research even if it blows the drive is fantastic LOL

[bass_straitener]

Chatted to Matt (Kido) - apparently providing the tune is kept under 17.6psi e85 is safe on stock engine. Blown engines are usually from too much boost and e85...

I was running 18psi.

As bass_straightener once said to me, people will tell you to go for anything when it's not their car

You'll find a quote from kido matt saying that boost is only a measure of restriction in the inlet and doesn't lift heads . I'm fairly certain he ran head studs and new HG on his flex fuel foz. And now he has a new engine for it.


It's not a proven fact that e85 will blow things up, but have a chat to MSR. My own tuner thinks it's fine, if controlled. But the tolerances for error become much smaller since you're running more ignition timing and your power and torque imcrease. The older the engine the higher the risk too. IMO the age of the engine is probably the biggest reason for HG failure and e85. Those oem headbolts aren't only old, they're a weak design too.

It "should" be ok and you obviously have your heart set on it. Just keep in mind the real life experiences people have had with it here. Do your own research even if it blows the drive is fantastic LOL

I still haven't found a stock engine that's lasted 12 months running E85 and I've been actively looking via the wrx clubs and other forums.

The stock tune runs 12 and a bit psi. So increasing boost to 17.6is already about 30% more. Then add E85 and more timing...

Coyote, a respected member on the forums, had an E85 tuned MY08 GTB wagon and from memory he ran 12 or 13psi and produced 180kws when in daily driving mode. That's a lot more sensible IMHO.

These engines in stock form aren't really that capable of dealing with a lot of torque or power.

If you want to go E85 a rebuild is inevitable and should be factored into your budget.

[KiDo_Tuning]

Chatted to Matt (Kido) - apparently providing the tune is kept under 17.6psi e85 is safe on stock engine. Blown engines are usually from too much boost and e85...

I was running 18psi.

As bass_straightener once said to me, people will tell you to go for anything when it's not their car

You'll find a quote from kido matt saying that boost is only a measure of restriction in the inlet and doesn't lift heads . I'm fairly certain he ran head studs and new HG on his flex fuel foz. And now he has a new engine for it.


It's not a proven fact that e85 will blow things up, but have a chat to MSR. My own tuner thinks it's fine, if controlled. But the tolerances for error become much smaller since you're running more ignition timing and your power and torque imcrease. The older the engine the higher the risk too. IMO the age of the engine is probably the biggest reason for HG failure and e85. Those oem headbolts aren't only old, they're a weak design too.

It "should" be ok and you obviously have your heart set on it. Just keep in mind the real life experiences people have had with it here. Do your own research even if it blows the drive is fantastic LOL

Yes Alexei, boost is inlet manifold pressure not the amount of air in the combustion chamber... If you had 22psi and only got 2.5g/rev of airflow fill into the cylinder then obviously your not stressing the engine. Tuning to 22psi on a VF52 WRX and having 3.6g/rev on E85 with FLKC range only going to 3.2g/rev can lift heads, no FLKC recorded to hear the heads clapping back onto the block so hard to diagnose hence why you can make the extra torque without running huge timing that can lift heads on first tap of high EGT preignition

I ran 22psi on E85 at 2700 to 3600rpm with the TD04 with stock motor for over a year and was on 19psi with TD05-16g on E85. I only fitted studs after pulling the motor out to fit the TS headers and suspect HG issue. It turned out to be a split coolant hose leaking and the HG's were fine. In fact workshop reused the HG's when fitting the new studs
Also, my current engine is still in the car and running fine as a few guys can attest. 2 years of E85 abuse and 70,000km's on stock block
New engine was simply because the Forester is now mine and I wanted more power, implying it it because the engine is dead/dying is wrong I will refit that engine if I ever decide to sell the car.

[KiDo_Tuning]

I still haven't found a stock engine that's lasted 12 months running E85 and I've been actively looking via the wrx clubs and other forums.

The stock tune runs 12 and a bit psi. So increasing boost to 17.6is already about 30% more. Then add E85 and more timing...

Coyote, a respected member on the forums, had an E85 tuned MY08 GTB wagon and from memory he ran 12 or 13psi and produced 180kws when in daily driving mode. That's a lot more sensible IMHO.

These engines in stock form aren't really that capable of dealing with a lot of torque or power.

If you want to go E85 a rebuild is inevitable and should be factored into your budget.

17.6psi is actually only 15.76% increase in airflow since your forgetting vacuum is still airflow

Yes, as I discussed with Cynner, peak power boost is going to be around 12psi since that is the limit of injectors at around 93% duty cycle. I have done around 11 VF46 and a few more TD04 Foresters this way. VF52 needs injector upgrade as it flows more air for same boost levels and that is again refering to Alexei's comment about boost Vs engine load. I made 189.5Kw@4800rpm on the RTR dyno and kept power flat to rev limit as boost tapered off as RPM increased on a forum members car at start of last year.

Also, since the Calculated Engine Torque table began use... the torque limit in the software stops a lot of the issues.

[alexeiwoody]

Yes Alexei, boost is inlet manifold pressure not the amount of air in the combustion chamber... If you had 22psi and only got 2.5g/rev of airflow fill into the cylinder then obviously your not stressing the engine. Tuning to 22psi on a VF52 WRX and having 3.6g/rev on E85 with FLKC range only going to 3.2g/rev can lift heads, no FLKC recorded to hear the heads clapping back onto the block so hard to diagnose hence why you can make the extra torque without running huge timing that can lift heads on first tap of high EGT preignition

I ran 22psi on E85 at 2700 to 3600rpm with the TD04 with stock motor for over a year and was on 19psi with TD05-16g on E85. I only fitted studs after pulling the motor out to fit the TS headers and suspect HG issue. It turned out to be a split coolant hose leaking and the HG's were fine. In fact workshop reused the HG's when fitting the new studs
Also, my current engine is still in the car and running fine as a few guys can attest. 2 years of E85 abuse and 70,000km's on stock block
New engine was simply because the Forester is now mine and I wanted more power, implying it it because the engine is dead/dying is wrong I will refit that engine if I ever decide to sell the car.

Using your non-stock headstud block to prove that stock headbolts can handle e85 is insane, dude. I know you know that we know that it doesn't make any sense.

Anyway two things don't add up.

You say you took out the engine for a leaking coolant hose? I had 2 leaking coolant hoses last week, and all I needed to do was run the engine until I pinpointed the leak. Replace hose and retest. I don't know anyone who takes a out an EJ255 to find a leaky coolant hose... - that doesn't make any sense, unless... you were rating the chance of a blown HG as quite probable. So then why tell others it's very unlikely?

Secondly - while you claim it's safe to run e85 on a stock engine with 170k on it....you installed stronger headstuds on an engine with 70k or less....why would someone spend $300-700 on new stronger studs, while they can't be bothered spending $100 on new headgaskets? It's a pretty purposeful move, wouldn't you say? And just happens to be the main weakness of the EJ block against e85.


Could you please show us a full stock block lib that has been running e85 for more than 2 years? Better yet - show us 5 or 10 . Until then, it doesn't matter what psi number you put up or what engine load you claim is safe - there's no real life evidence for it. You don't know what cylinder pressure it takes to stretch any given headbolt, because you don't know the tensile strength left in them after 170k, you can only guess...and do people really want to put a $5k wager on your guess? Why should they - when you didn't run the stock bolts yourself - because you didn't want to have to worry about it.

In the meantime, to start with, I can name you 5 libs that have blown engines on e85.

[alexeiwoody]

I still haven't found a stock engine that's lasted 12 months running E85 and I've been actively looking via the wrx clubs and other forums.

The stock tune runs 12 and a bit psi. So increasing boost to 17.6is already about 30% more. Then add E85 and more timing...

Coyote, a respected member on the forums, had an E85 tuned MY08 GTB wagon and from memory he ran 12 or 13psi and produced 180kws when in daily driving mode. That's a lot more sensible IMHO.

These engines in stock form aren't really that capable of dealing with a lot of torque or power.

If you want to go E85 a rebuild is inevitable and should be factored into your budget.

17.6psi is actually only 15.76% increase in airflow since your forgetting vacuum is still airflow

Yes, as I discussed with Cynner, peak power boost is going to be around 12psi since that is the limit of injectors at around 93% duty cycle. I have done around 11 VF46 and a few more TD04 Foresters this way. VF52 needs injector upgrade as it flows more air for same boost levels and that is again refering to Alexei's comment about boost Vs engine load. I made 189.5Kw@4800rpm on the RTR dyno and kept power flat to rev limit as boost tapered off as RPM increased on a forum members car at start of last year.

Also, since the Calculated Engine Torque table began use... the torque limit in the software stops a lot of the issues.

E85 makes more torque....yet it can do so without stressing the engine more....?

More torque=we're making higher cylinder pressures....yet you're saying nothing in the engine has to work against the pressure to hold it all together?

What's responsible for holding the engine pressure together? Headbolts.

Have they a history of failing on e85? Yes.

All you're claiming is that you can "work out" the safe point of torque to put through an engine. Of course - without any tensile testing done.

Do you have any actual evidence why people should trust you with their car, besides some guy's car you tuned at 4800rpm at RTR (which could be in a scrapyard for all we know)?

[KiDo_Tuning]

Using your non-stock headstud block to prove that stock headbolts can handle e85 is insane, dude. I know you know that we know that it doesn't make any sense.

Anyway two things don't add up.
You say you took out the engine for a leaking coolant hose? I had 2 leaking coolant hoses last week, and all I needed to do was run the engine until I pinpointed the leak. Replace hose and retest. I don't know anyone who takes a out an EJ255 to find a leaky coolant hose... - that doesn't make any sense, unless... you were rating the chance of a blown HG as quite probable. So then why tell others it's very unlikely?
Secondly - while you claim it's safe to run e85 on a stock engine with 170k on it....you installed stronger headstuds on an engine with 70k or less....why would someone spend $300-700 on new stronger studs, while they can't be bothered spending $100 on new headgaskets? It's a pretty purposeful move, wouldn't you say? And just happens to be the main weakness of the EJ block against e85.
Could you please show us a full stock block lib that has been running e85 for more than 2 years? Better yet - show us 5 or 10 . Until then, it doesn't matter what psi number you put up or what engine load you claim is safe - there's no real life evidence for it. You don't know what cylinder pressure it takes to stretch any given headbolt, because you don't know the tensile strength left in them after 170k, you can only guess...and do people really want to put a $5k wager on your guess? Why should they - when you didn't run the stock bolts yourself - because you didn't want to have to worry about it.

In the meantime, to start with, I can name you 5 libs that have blown engines on e85.

Ummm... I had it on E85 with stock head bolts for 18 months. I actually pulled the motor as I was fitting its old clutch, the twin scroll JDM headers and the VF56, along with fixing another unrelated issue that required engine out etc. It had an intermittent coolant loss so figured fix it while it was out would check the gaskets. Gaskets are multilayer steel and were not damaged... why would I not reuse them?

My old neighbour has an auto TD05-16g 08 XT that has 255,000Kms... 135,000 of that on E85 and tows a caravan with it. Towing is by far the hardest part as you can be under vacuum but generating a LOT of load... that is why Subaru's Cruise AVCS map is the shape it is Maybe the 30 or so 08+ STi's running 22psi on stock motors with E85 can also explain why they dont have issues? Let me message these LGT guys and see their responses if you like.

Wow, good to see cylinder pressure and manifold pressure being used correctly though.

Were these 5 libs running VF46's or did they fail on bigger?

[KiDo_Tuning]

E85 makes more torque....yet it can do so without stressing the engine more....?

More torque=we're making higher cylinder pressures....yet you're saying nothing in the engine has to work against the pressure to hold it all together?

What's responsible for holding the engine pressure together? Headbolts.

Have they a history of failing on e85? Yes.

All you're claiming is that you can "work out" the safe point of torque to put through an engine. Of course - without any tensile testing done.

Do you have any actual evidence why people should trust you with their car, besides some guy's car you tuned at 4800rpm at RTR (which could be in a scrapyard for all we know)?

On a VF46 that makes less peak crank torque than a Blouch 1.5XT pushing 22psi? What stress? I dont need to wind huge timing in to make power on E85. SInce we have discussed before torque is how power is derived, if a car remians under that peak torque figure, it is not putting any more combustive force on the engine than 98. Your just running less boost and a highly oxygenated fuel to make similar torque...

[McDoof]

While this thread is riveting, maybe you should take it offline or move to thread that is about your turbo engines. This is a place for the calmer less aggro H6 drivers.
No boost here.

[3rspecb]

While this thread is riveting, maybe you should take it offline or move to thread that is about your turbo engines. This is a place for the calmer less aggro H6 drivers.
No boost here.

Some H6 owners have boost

[SegR]

>< god damn (boost) hippies!

[McDoof]

Some H6 owners have boost

That is true. Rare, but true. At least you still have 6 Cylinders

[cynner]

Yep sorry got a bit off-topic. Have moved it over to "The E85 thread", for those following at home: http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=15638&p=376561#p376561