Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Posts specific to the 3.0 litre NA H6 engine

Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:04 am

VVT_extremedifference_scattergraph.png
VVT_extremedifference_scattergraph.png (88 KiB) Viewed 435 times


OK so Here is the exact same scatter graph, but with the negative 7 to plus 7 VVT angle difference filtered out.

Doing that really opens out the data in the Time v RPM v VVT difference graph.

The two lower graphs show the same data but with the one on the left favouring positive VVT difference values and the other negative VVT difference values.

Also: the VVT difference formula is simply [VVT int L] - [VVT int R] in the app.

The filter I applied is this:

[Field.VVT difference] > -7 && [Field.VVT difference] < 7

I think this is a correct explanation also:

negative vvt difference = left side lagging
positive vvt difference = right side lagging


Whats my takeaway?

Well, I consider swapping AVCS solenoids from side to side to be a good practice.

For example, annually or every 50K klm, or whenever significant lag appears in my logs:

Doing so generally fixes lag and the system stays in harmony, rather than getting more and more overcooked as it struggles to self-calibrate.

So that's where I'd begin. Remove, soak, clean reinstall on the opposite side.

And smash out that log with more data, holding the rev points I mentioned as well.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:10 am

Thanks for help. ECU reset was about 500km before log. I swapped solenoid position before and no difference, engine felt little better. My point is that if you look at first 53 secs of log, there is barely any activity in solenoids. I drove car normally and engine felt sluggish, suddenly solenoids came alive and got power back. At idle advance is 0 anyway, at 1700-2000 both give same readings. Problem seems to be that these solenoids dosen´t always work when they should, they get stuck or something wierd. At 75 sec mark there is 20 degree difference and theres more spots like that, dosen´t this show clearly that they are not in sync? Anyway, I ordered new oem solenoids about 64 dollars each, these things seems to go bad in subaru and toyota... Still wondering why exhaust solenoids cannot be logged? Going to make log after new parts are installed.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:22 am

Also cleaned and tested solenoids couple months ago, they seem to work fine. There can be problem with electronic part of solenoid, worn out. Solenoids are right in front of engine exposed to dampness and different temperature changes.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:23 am

My theory is that there’s slight oil pressure differences between the ocv oil feeds :P
Maybe one side has to work harder.

Great, well there you go with that basic test, and the confirmation of good vs bad behaviour in the log.
Wow the h6 solenoids are a great price too, from where?

There’s a possibility that the cam angle sensors could have metal filings on them so maybe pull those if new ocv’s still present issues.

An oil flush is another possibility but research your preferred approach: they can vary from mild to very wild:) eg the differences between Nulon and Wynn’s, UEC, atf or worse in the oil, pre oil change.

Love to see another log if and when they’re replaced. :good:
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:31 am

Edits^
The thing that gets me on the log is the duty behaviour.
Those spikes definitely look to me like the ecu is indeed trying to “reboot” the ocv’s...
But how on earth the ocv’s change angles w/o any duty has got me.

Does your car actually have exhaust vvt?
Are you using the exact ecu identifier or an alias?
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:40 am

Partsouq.com sell oem parts very cheap.. Cam and crank sensors has been cleaned previously. Car has also exhaust vvt system, I use btssm and dont know how ecu is identified. If new solenoids dont fix the problem then right side banjo bolt screen has to be inspected. Its between oil filter and engine head and difficult to get access. I have been thinking about engine flush before next oil change (5000km), but some say that it should not be used in boxer engine? I think subaru has its own engine flush to sell? VVT has 3 stages, 1,2 and 3. Something like 2000,3500 and 5000rpm. I thought that duty changes only means that VVT is changing the "stage".
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:17 am

Yeah, I meant the h6 valve is more affordable than the 2.5t: from partsouq :P

I did a cross post on FB and asked the question: only the 3.6 H6 has dual avcs.
But it was right here anyway:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_ ... rol_system

Unfortunately no other advice was proffered, meaning we’re the sme’s here. :)

Failing that, I’d try researching lgt or maybe the outback forums.
It can’t be a unique issue, you’d hope...

Interesting about vvt stages, yet the log I graphed displayed vvt pretty much doing its own thing vs duty.
I’ll take a look again getting your specific ecu into Btssm meaning all your parameters are correctly logged.
Its in the Btssm manual iirc.
Basically Btssm should automatically identify your ECU, meaning all is well regarding that aspect.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:20 pm

Wikipedia is not correct.. There is exhaust vvt and these has been cleaned also. Diagram: http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/e ... tration_1/
Part 3 and 4..
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:47 pm

I’m no expert, I’m 2.5t...
But if you take a peek here, you can see the inlet cam gears are bigger than the exhaust cam gears.
http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/e ... tration_1/
From the head illustration you linked, there is just one ocv per head.
Dual AVCS requires an extra set of variable cam gears and ocv’s.

What is your source for thinking 3.0 h6 has dual AVCS?

Did you get around to logging per cylinder misfires?
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:38 am

Thats true...theres no exhaust vvt but it has 4 solenoids for intake vvt and no way logging rear ones? Misfires only when cold at idle and not always, maybe 3/10 starts. Logging did not pickup any misfires when you can hear them, and when car warms up it evens out but still there is very little shake felt. Anyways replaced both front solenoids today and engine feels smoother, dont know about cold idle yet. 3500rpm change over feels now like it should be, before there was hesitation. Logged car and now they follow each other better but there is still that lag between banks when going max and min advance, right side seems to be lazy one. I will post log later. LV look little better also. Going to clean that right side banjo bolt screen and replace intake manifold gaskets, EGR and throttle body gaskets are fine. Compared old and new solenoids by shaking them and old had something loose inside, new was solid and no sound. Here is a bit poor video :D : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YQ52BM ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:09 am

I guess the “other” solenoids are the cam sensors?
^ Wrong: but the cam sensors appear to be located in the manifolds for the osv’s or ocv’s :)

Anyhow, that’s good progress. Post another log please :)
Last edited by bigBADbenny on Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:39 am

Ok I did a little homework and found out the following:

Yes, there are two solenoids per head.

One is an ocv for avcs, probably the front solenoid.

The other is an osv which is reffered to as an oil switching valve.

So in order to properly log avcs, make sure you log vvt advance angle, ocv duty cycle as well as osv and vvl :)

But do add some of the other parameters I listed above.

For the full list of loggable parameters for your ecuid:
http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8328

Its all news to me: I took another peek at the PID list and there it is: VVL or variable valve lift.
So you want to log osv in conjunction with vvl.

Now this all relates back to another thread I found around this subject, and another set of potential CEL’s, and that’s that there might be 2x oil pressure switches one for engine oil warning light, the other tied to VVL activity.

Probably untelated to your issue but certainly something to be aware of... Especially as both sensors are known to either leak or fail...

And it has a pid so just another one to log, just to confirm its working.

https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/99 ... -09-a.html

Here’s a thread, similar issue to yours:
https://www.google.com.au/search?biw=32 ... ObPg228nmE


:)
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:04 am

Ok. Here is VVT logging after new solenoids : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wGB0j ... vMWN5xfZN1
This is after 50km ecu reset, car lighted up check engine light. P0420, bank 1 rear 02 sensor. This started appearing after headers install couple years ago, doesnt affect engine at all. Log : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KME-X ... hy4ad6ogLT
Car feels definetly better but I think there is still something wierd going on on bank 1. No cold misfires yet but at warm idle little studder can be felt and fuel trim rises +10 at bank1.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby bigBADbenny » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:07 am

Great, how’s the LV: Improved?

I forget but have you logged per cylinder misfires at all?
If the parameters are not in Btssm field chooser you can add them manually using the Romraider definition, link above...

And since you’re on raptor headers, who tuned the car?
Because I thought that disabling the cat efficiency cel was the usual thing when tuning.
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Re: Slight missfire at idle 3.0R

Postby Mariano » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:29 am

Yes logged individual cylinders but no misfires. Car has not yet been tuned, like to get engine working properly first. LV is almost the same. Heres LV : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nn6L6 ... 9WPgwj8NbH
LV dosent say much to me?
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