The anti swaybar “upgrade” rant post!

[bigBADbenny]

Special mention to flash tuned Golf owners doing 150+ on the freeway

[bigBADbenny]

So three cars, three test drives this weekend.

Two on Shockworks, stock swaybars.

One on 170k km billies and pinks and WL front an rear bars...

Street manners reasonably similar as regards perceived roll.

One car could be driven at bumps with with a carefree attitude.

My GT, thankfully!

Leon’s 2.5i also on SW, stock sways. Needs the guards rolled as I found out on the first big speed bump (that my car sailed over)...

A real pity but yes overall the updated damper code is even better than my ancient set: or certainly no worse.

Josh’s GT on the sways and billies: didn’t even try, beyond the reasonable scope of possibility.

I’m just pointing out that upgrade sway bars are not a suspension upgrade at all, and might only be considered a handling upgrade if the suspension itself has been upgraded.

[Stifull]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but my very limited experience with Libertys and coilovers (never had them on a car before I got my GT) is that it seems it is much better value to leave all the sways and end links etc stock and just fit coil overs. My Liberty will go round corners just as quick as my Blue Club Spec 2 Rex which has whiteline sways,mounts,bushes, end links,anti lift kit and king lows on healthy stock struts and handles like it is on rails but still gives a nice ride. The only negative with the TEIN coils is you really need to show speed bumps a LOT of respect.. Also they take a 2-3 minutes to warm up which I thought was a bit strange at first but it does make sense when you think about it. I know this is the case because at the bottom of our drive way, which is 250 meters long, has a slight dip before starting up the hill and I am usually doing 45+kph by the time I get to the dip and the tyres scrub on the guards. They only ever scrub there on the first outing of the day, after that, even with 3-4 on board they never scrub once warmed up.

[Yowie]

I know this is the case because at the bottom of our drive way, which is 250 meters long,

You would need the good handling to swerve around all the peacocks strutting about on your estate there Stifull

[nvmylh]

I thought sway bars were the "bang for buck" handling mod??

Anyone care to share what a set of shockworks struts and shocks cost?

[bigBADbenny]

Contact Shockworks direct, they’ve always been over $2k retail plus freight.

Its kind of a bargain as I haven’t really stressed over the ride and handling or smoother speed bumps in 5 years

Really want that custom lighter 2 point adjustable front swaybar... just for aaah testing purposes

And install the PROVA end links, rigi cola and some drawbar chassis enhancements...

[Kimmo]

Brett at Shockworks quoted me $2200, plus $100 for shipping, but I'm gonna drive over and pick em up. Currently sold out, waiting for a new batch in a few weeks.

brett.obrien@shockworks.com.au

[nvmylh]

Thanks for the pricing, I had no idea what they were.. Just remember any coil-overs around or under $1000 was most likely rubbish lol

[Yowie]

Interesting article on a "springs & swaybars" package (not coil overs) for a Mustang race car by professional racing driver Billy Johnson ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Joh ... ing_driver) )

https://motoiq.com/project-budget-400wh ... -and-bars/

While it's not a Subaru being modified (and one assumes a commercial arrangement between the author and the kit manufacturer), it indicates to me that there are many valid paths in handling modifications. Selected article quotes below:

You don’t need a ‘racecar for the street’ with coilovers and 500lb+ spring rates to make a Mustang handle well on track. Heck, the new 2020 Shelby GT500 that I worked on (as a development driver) is faster on track than most supercars, and it doesn’t have spring rates anywhere near that stiff. And that’s a 4,000+lb car with 305 width Cup 2 front tires on it!

...is a complete suspension system that includes springs, swaybars, and shocks for less than the price (often ½ to 1/3 the price) of most coilovers. This package delivers track-capable performance while maintaining excellent ride quality that you can live with everyday without the suspension beating you up or creaking, squeaking, and clanking over bumps.

We ditched the super sticky grease that came with the swaybar bushings that are known to quickly lead to squeaking. Instead, we are using NanoPro MT Marine Grease. We have had a lot of success using in balljoints, axle shafts, and various other bushings.

To finish off the swaybars, we replaced the original non-adjustable end links with these adjustable billet aluminum ones from Steeda. The adjustable links allow the length to be adjusted so there is zero preload on the swaybar, which will cause uneven tire loading and handling.

I was initially skeptical with the idea of running the 1.25” rear bar for track use because the BOSS 302R’s that I drove to victory so many times in the Grand-Am series used custom ½-7/8” rear swaybars. Having that much roll resistance in the rear of the car would likely just cause a lack of rear grip.

An important takeaway is that BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER. Throwing a massive rear swaybar on a car, especially a Mustang, is often not the best answer to reduce understeer. A car’s handling is an entire SYSTEM and once change can often adversely affect many others. For the S197 platform, I would try to use the smallest and softest rear swaybar I could get away with, and focus on adding front grip rather than taking away rear grip.

[bigBADbenny]

Like cheap coilovers with a one damper code fits all platforms, grandfathered from another time and place, swaybar upgrades tend to big, bigger and biggerer, when a more nuanced approach would befit actual chassis fine tuning, the emphasis being “fine”.

Check out the YCW suspension 101 article, where the correct approach is mentioned, to avoid the tail chasing.
https://www.ycwsuspension.com/suspension101/

Thankfully we have the option of custom swaybars locally.
I’d get one, but can’t say I’ve noticed any actual “need” for my extreme grand touring duties.
All the slack has been taken up with caster offset lca’s, Shockworks and the rear biased open dccd.
…

[bigBADbenny]

Cmon you can’t make this stuff up lol.

Last month the flavour was to describe the “need” for a heavy rear swaybar was to do with something described as helping the rear catch up with the front in corners.

What?

However at least one devotee of the idea owns a gen 5 wagon and who knows, perhaps the stock setup on that gen is really flawed?

Either way, I doubt it.

[Yowie]

1. Can you post a link to the straw man situation described?

2. An example of poor application/settings of swaybars does as much use as an example of poor application/settings of coil-overs. Either/both are valid if used correctly. Either/both will result in poor handling if used very poorly.

"They say that water is good for you - well I knew someone who drowned!"

[bigBADbenny]

I’d have to search the mess that is FB.
Let’s see SLOGA, Subaru Liberty Owners Group Australia probably.
Keywords sway and bar, how hard could it be?

https://m.facebook.com/groups/107835545 ... ent_filter

Here we go.

“Squares up/rear catches up a lot better in corners.”

And variations on that theme.

Trouble is, calling BS on FB basically offends people, meaning its a breeding ground for misinformation.

[Yowie]

“Squares up/rear catches up a lot better in corners.”

Not my choice of descriptive words, but I can see the logic behind it:

If the base setting of a factory all-wheel-drive Subaru is "understeer" that means the front is ploughing on straight even though the wheels are turned - "not enough front grip**". Understeer is popular for stock passenger cars because it is safer in the hands of an untrained driver reacting instinctively.

As a reminder, "oversteer" is where the back end swings out during a turn - "not enough rear grip**"

[**relative to the opposite end of the car]

A car that is balanced/neutral through the corner would have approximately equal grip between the front and rear ends of the car.

One of the features of a swaybar is by stiffening up that end of the car it reduces grip** at that stiffened end. As such the chassis can be tuned via swaybars for the balance that the driver seeks.

Back to the "understeer" base setting of the stock Subaru - a driver who wants to make the handling more neutral can add a thicker swaybar to the rear. This is a cheap, popular modification on Foresters (and perhaps other models) for that reason.

In my view “Squares up/rear catches up a lot better in corners.” is not the best description of the above, but not the worst either. At the end of the day the rear end is moving more and the car is rotating more through the corner after the thicker rear bar goes on.

---

Note, Swaybars do more than just subtract grip** from one end or the other. I have thicker swaybars front and rear. The overall reduction in bodyroll and improved grip is noticable - all four tyres are in better more square contact with the bitumen. When I had the larger rear bar and the stock front bar the car would tend to push understeer through fast sweeping bends. With stiffer front and rear it is more settled.

It is interesting to me that the "hot" vehicle models from factory often have stiffer swaybars front & rear than the grocery version of the same car.

[bigBADbenny]

“Squares up/rear catches up a lot better in corners.”

Not my choice of descriptive words, but I can see the logic behind it:

If the base setting of a factory all-wheel-drive Subaru is "understeer" that means the front is ploughing on straight even though the wheels are turned - "not enough front grip**". Understeer is popular for stock passenger cars because it is safer in the hands of an untrained driver reacting instinctively.

As a reminder, "oversteer" is where the back end swings out during a turn - "not enough rear grip**"

[**relative to the opposite end of the car]

A car that is balanced/neutral through the corner would have approximately equal grip between the front and rear ends of the car.

One of the features of a swaybar is by stiffening up that end of the car it reduces grip** at that stiffened end. As such the chassis can be tuned via swaybars for the balance that the driver seeks.

Back to the "understeer" base setting of the stock Subaru - a driver who wants to make the handling more neutral can add a thicker swaybar to the rear. This is a cheap, popular modification on Foresters (and perhaps other models) for that reason.

In my view “Squares up/rear catches up a lot better in corners.” is not the best description of the above, but not the worst either. At the end of the day the rear end is moving more and the car is rotating more through the corner after the thicker rear bar goes on.

---

Note, Swaybars do more than just subtract grip** from one end or the other. I have thicker swaybars front and rear. The overall reduction in bodyroll and improved grip is noticable - all four tyres are in better more square contact with the bitumen. When I had the larger rear bar and the stock front bar the car would tend to push understeer through fast sweeping bends. With stiffer front and rear it is more settled.

It is interesting to me that the "hot" vehicle models from factory often have stiffer swaybars front & rear than the grocery version of the same car.

I couldn’t make this ^ up so I’m both humbled and glad that you did, thanks

Now anti swaybars add or subtract grip?
I gotta look that up!

The way I’d describe my approach is that worn out car parts are a great excuse for upgrades.
So I’ve replaced & upgraded many of my suspension parts, but the swaybars weren’t worn out so why bother, if there’s no perceived requirement to?

Especially when I found handling heaven by upgrading other related parts?
I gets my handling feel with no detriment to compliance and ultimately, grip.

When I feel the need for changing my handling with something other than tyres, alignment and spring rate etc, I’ll consider a custom blade adjustable, probably stock weight bar/s.

At this point I’d probably be under the guidance of someone more qualified than myself and it will be a fine adjustment process, not resetting the apple cart with gross effect.

In the meantime the swaybars arms race will continue.
In a recent post on FB, 13mm stock gen3 was replaced with 19…

Next minute the comments roll in and its mines bigger than yours!
Big, bigger and biggerer.
Iirc they topped out at 24mm before everyone lost interest…

Career chassis engineers everyone of them, evidently.

Enthusiasts, oems whatever! Everyone does it because it’s easy, low hanging fruit.
I’d rather spend the time and money on far more useful mods.

Anyhow since its time to hit the books, let’s get started somewhere useful, a drivers car that’s great on track:
https://flyinmiata.com/FMcontent/pdf/HP ... hapter.pdf