Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:40 am

nvmylh wrote:Just noticed your front brake setup, interesting! I've heard about porsche cayanne or osmething calipers being used but never really got into it. Did you get the kit straight from the USA?


Bought these brake calipers from another forum member, no idea how they managed to source Cadilac GTSV calipers in AUS. Although looking online you can get them brand new around the $1.2k mark (without rotors or pads) as an OEM part, so it would probably be a cheaper option compared to buying used TBSTi Brembos here. I bought them with an adapter dog bone to fit on the stock lib hubs, but I did have to drill out one mounting hole and tap the other to provide the correct mounting locations.

nvmylh wrote:Hey just had another thought, what sort of coolant temps do you see on track days?

I put a 25mm koyo radiator in my ez30r and a lower temp EJ25 thermostat. Yesterday cruising home from phillip island to boronia I saw an average of 37-38deg ambient temp, 85-88C coolant temps with the A/C running at 95-98kmh. Pretty good I thought! Coasting down hills and for a fair distance before stopping so the temps drop to like 80 at times.


Pretty much exactly the cooling system I'm running at the moment too, and I'm also running Redline Water Wetter and pure distilled water, as it never drops below freezing where I live. I see pretty much exactly the same temps on street, even driving back from the beach on a 42c day. On some nice mountain drives I will have to have the heater turned up to max and max blower speed, and coolant temps will settle in around 95-98, depending on how hard I push it and the ambient temps.

Track days are another story completely. The first one I got to this year was on a 40c+ day, and I saw coolant spike up to 102c on the very first lap of the day (9:30am ish). I could get barely half a lap in before coolant temps were way too hot. Towards the end of the second day last year, ambient around 28c, coolant temps settled in at 100c, after a hard lap, but I could not do more than one hot lap between 3 cooldown laps or the temps got too hot again. I have Race Radiators in Dandenong modifying a GT radiator as we speak, 40mm thick and triple core, so hopefully in combination with the Water Wetter that should be just enough to bring the coolant temps back down to reality.
Last edited by JezzaH6 on Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby nvmylh » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:16 am

1 hot lap for 3 cool downs? That sucks, I was hoping the thicker radiator would handle it a bit better than that!

Be cool to know more about supergramps and how that thing handles track days. They seem to go for multiple laps and on a standard radiator by the look of it.
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:31 pm

nvmylh wrote:1 hot lap for 3 cool downs? That sucks, I was hoping the thicker radiator would handle it a bit better than that!

Be cool to know more about supergramps and how that thing handles track days. They seem to go for multiple laps and on a standard radiator by the look of it.


Yep very frustrating. Running water wetter and distilled water (ie. no glycol) and that's not even close to enough! No idea how people run these with turbos on the stock cooling system with no issues. Unless they just aren't pushed that hard :roll:
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby bigBADbenny » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:34 pm

Stock radiators can be good performers especially with a thicker fmic.

Something to do with the thinness/more airflow/better efficiency?
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:49 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:Stock radiators can be good performers especially with a thicker fmic.

Something to do with the thinness/more airflow/better efficiency?


Definitely a good point and does make sense with a turbo. As long as the stock cooling system is good enough to hold itself together when not under boost though! When there's no FMIC in the way and the stock radiator is struggling N/A though that's not great!

Admittedly on street is pretty much adequate. It's only on track that it starts to struggle. Next track day I need to find the time to write up a Turbo Lag-esque track day write up- just haven't had time :cry: maybe an AC condenser delete is on the cards.

Actually no that seems like a terrible idea :D :lol:
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:17 pm

The next stage of my 3.0r-b modifications is a DCCD swap! After killing a synchro on track I was in the market for a rebuild. After looking at the cost involved in this, and with me being me and not satisfied with the stock gearbox setup, I decided to swap the stock 6 speed manual with a TY856UB1KA from a 2009 JDM WRX STi! :lol:

http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36720&p=450423#p450423
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby nvmylh » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:37 pm

Hey Jezza, back on the oil and water temp subject: Do you run the standard plastic under tray? I have been watching my oil and water temps lately, noticing that the oil temp is lagging a fair bit behind the water in this colder weather. 1 rainy day saw it stay pretty damn cold too so I was wondering if my lack of undertray had something to do with it.

So today I put the undertray back on and went for a mild run up mountain hwy (17deg ambient). It took a while for the oil to heat up to >80 but it eventually seem to settle around 85-90, a few degrees HIGHER than water this time. Water stayed around 84-85 for most of the way up until I got stuck behind someone, where it went up to 88-90ish.

I reckon the undertray made the oil hotter, even on the way down the mountain it stayed up unless I coasted for ages and water went down to 77. Even coasting in neutral helped raise the water up to around 82-83. I also noticed that you have to be coasting with the engine above around 1900rpm for the engine to cool, otherwise it'll stay or VERY slowly drop in temp. (guess theres not much flow below that RPM..)
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:37 pm

I am running the plastic undertray. I actually haven't tried driving around without that on- I do like the (admittedly limited) protection it does offer. I could imagine the oil temps would be a bit cooler with the undertray removed- this would see more airflow over and around the sump. In saying that it may see a slight increase in coolant temps, as I would think that undertray helps guide the air after it goes through the radiator. I actually have no idea- maybe something to play around with!

Now that it's cooling down I have noticed oil lagging behind coolant too. As far as I can tell this is pretty normal for these engines- mine's always done it in cooler weather for as long as I've had access to the data. These engines do seem to run pretty cold on the oil on the highway, but it gets hot fast through the hills/track. Headed out to Lake Mountain this afternoon the oil eventually settled in at about 80c; a few degrees below the coolant temp (ambient 12c). Heading up the mountain oil reached 101c and coolant didn't even touch 90c. Pretty happy with how well it all seems to be working now!

I got stuck behind someone, where it went up to 88-90ish.


It's definitely interesting how much of a difference it makes when you are behind someone in their dirty air. Seems to add easily 3-5c to the coolant temp depending on the pace.

I reckon the undertray made the oil hotter, even on the way down the mountain it stayed up unless I coasted for ages and water went down to 77. Even coasting in neutral helped raise the water up to around 82-83. I also noticed that you have to be coasting with the engine above around 1900rpm for the engine to cool, otherwise it'll stay or VERY slowly drop in temp. (guess theres not much flow below that RPM..)


I do think it would make the oil hotter too. I'd be surprised if it was a lot, but really haven't played around with that much. I would also be very interested to see the effect on coolant temperatures too- I would imagine the undertray helps prevent air flowing into the engine bay, and thus reducing the pressure inside the engine bay, which would help airflow through the radiator. The back of the undertray may act like a venturi too, helping suck air through the radiator. This is just a guess though I actually don't know.

I have also noticed the coolant temp drops a lot faster coasting above 1900rpm. With the short ratio box this becomes a lot easier :lol:

An interesting note- when I switched from a sensor-adapter sandwich plate to the thermostatic oil cooler take off the mounting location of the sensor changed. When I was running the regular sandwich plate the sensor was facing towards the front of the car, which meant it was in the airflow path as it goes between the engine and the undertray. The thermostatic sandwich plate I am now using, however, has the sensor mount on the back side, meaning the temperature sensor is protected from the airflow by the sandwich plate, the oil filter and the cylinder head itself. This saw a roughly 8c increase in my displayed oil temperature. For both sandwich plates the temperature sensor was mounted such that it reads the oil as it comes from the pump, before it goes through the oil cooler and the filter.

This had me scratching my head and wondering how I messed that up, until I realised the new sensor location is now out of the airflow path. Where do you have the temperature sensor mounted? If it is facing towards the front of the car it may be in an airflow path and giving you a falsely low reading!

Makes me even more nervous that I saw 135c+ oil temperatures on track before fitting the oil cooler :x
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm

Edited mod list to include some more recent endeavours. Update to come!
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby nvmylh » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:41 am

Hey Jezza I have been looking into my potential brembo brake install, can you confirm what model booster and master cylinder you run? GDB WRX STI? Was it a bolt on job? Cheers
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:20 pm

nvmylh wrote:Hey Jezza I have been looking into my potential brembo brake install, can you confirm what model booster and master cylinder you run? GDB WRX STI? Was it a bolt on job? Cheers


No worries! You will have to change the brake booster if you are planning on running the 1 1/16" master cylinder- these master cylinders will not bolt onto the Lib brake booster! From what I was able to work out all the Subaru brake boosters share the same firewall mounting hole spacing; where they differ will be in the length of the brake booster input shaft, and the mounting pattern of the master cylinder. IIRC the 1 1/16" master cylinders were available in the WRX STi up until 2007, so any WRX brake booster up to 2007 will bolt onto the Liberty firewall and will allow you to bolt the bigger master cylinder to it.

The one I got for mine is from an 06 GDB WRX STi- part number F01G061021. These have the benefit of being 'tuned' for brembos- whether or not this makes much of difference though I have no idea. I chose this one as I got it used for a good price- I paid about $80 for it which was comparable to a non-brembo brake booster at the time. This fit in my car (sedan) with zero modifications to the booster itself; however in a friends car (wagon) the welded seams of the booster interfered ever so slightly with the brake lines running behind it. This was easy to fix by rolling over the welded seams with a hammer- which had no detrimental effect to the booster.

The clevis where the brake booster input shaft connects to the brake pedal does need some modification. The input shaft on the WRX boosters is slightly longer- if you connect it directly to the brake pedal of the Liberty it will lock-up the brakes the first time you use them- and not release them again. This is easy to fix by drilling a new mounting hole in the clevis 10mm below the existing one. I also ended up trimming about 8mm off the threaded section of the input rod- but make sure you measure this on your car as this measurement depends on where you drill the new hole! This allowed me to adjust the pedal position where the brakes start to grab to be only a few mm into its travel, leading to an immediate braking effect that is very confidence inspiring.

Image
New hole drilling in booster input shaft clevis

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New mounting location of clevis pin versus old

The master cylinder I bought brand new. My entire reason for the upgrade was a suspected master cylinder failure, and I didn't want to mess around with a used part that is safety critical. I ended up purchasing a Protex master cylinder- part number 210A0076. This has the 1 1/16" (26.98mm) inner bore, and uses M10x1.0 double flare fittings. If your car does not have VSC congratulations- it will bolt onto the new brake booster and you can use your existing brake lines! Even the electrical connector for the brake fluid level sensor is the same.

If you have a VSC-equipped car, however, bad luck as you are not done yet. The VSC master cylinder uses M12x1.0 fittings and the ports are in different locations to the non-vsc cars. There is no 1 1/16" master cylinder fitted to vsc-equipped Subarus. As far as I can tell the VSC system uses these larger fittings as the pressure pulses when VSC activates are large, and the M12 fittings ensure they are not a bottleneck. In saying that, I have now had the new master cylinder fitted for many vsc-activating moments and had zero issues. You will require custom brake lines with M12x1.0 fittings for the ABS pump side, and M10x1.0 fittings for the master cylinder. I ended up getting some thick wire, bending it into shape with the new master cylinder installed and took that to the local brake shop to get the custom lines made, which cost me $30 for the two lines. I got these lines made up with 1/4" steel brake lines, which is the stock VSC size, to ensure minimal resistance to spikes in fluid flow.

Image
Custom hard lines (mock up) required for VSC-equipped vehicles

It is definitely worth bench bleeding the master cylinder before installing it. If you buy it brand new there is no reason to not compress the piston the whole way, and it should only take 15-20 pumps of the piston to get the air out. if it takes longer than this you may have a DOA master cylinder- we experienced this doing this swap on Leon's (turbolag's) wagon. After attaching the lines I then bled them, leaving them only loosely connected to the ABS pump. This helps reduce the amount of air you get in the ABS pump, and makes bleeding that a lot easier. Be very very very careful with the fittings going into the aluminium ABS pump- the first lot of custom lines I got had a bubble flare, not a double flare. When I went to tighten the fitting it just stripped out the ABS pump :angry2: . Be very careful and double check the fitting style you get on the brake lines before installing them!

Image
Cheap bench bleeding setup- less than $20 from Supercheap!

Even with this issue though I still 100% recommend this if you are tying to get more out of your brakes! Knowing what I know now I would even do this before fitting brembos- the brake feel you get with the larger master cylinder is phenomenal and very confidence inspiring. Coupled with some good brake pads (I have been currently trying Forza FP3's with very promising results) this is a fantastic and underrated mod for these cars.

Image
I had to swap over the VSC computer from my ABS pump when I stripped the thread. The replacement pump I got was from an automatic, which features the same pump and electronics, but with different VSC tuning. I ended up swapping the electronics module from my car as it was undamaged, and I was not able to find a VSC-equipped abs module from a manual! I thought the internal structure was very interesting and something many people may not have seen.
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:38 am

Always the masterclass, Jezza!

The question is: is the pedal feel no longer progressive, is it “woody” ?

I’ve driven a few cars where the brakes feel instantly “on”, I’m not a huge fan of the feel but of course, in practice, one could get used to it, such is haptic adaptation and muscle memory. :good:

Keen to try it out when we’re back, hopefully sooooon! :P

With my car at the km where everything is going to be replaced eventually, it’s an upgrade I might just consider, especially being non VSC…
Last edited by bigBADbenny on Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby Yowie » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:41 am

Great write-up.

Also, do you ever run out of cordless drills?
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:38 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:Always the masterclass, Jezza!

The question is: is the pedal feel no longer progressive, is it “woody” ?


Cheers! I do my best :D

It's a hard one to describe I think, not as simple as saying 'firm' or 'woody'.

The brakes begin to engage after about 5mm of pedal travel- but this point can be adjusted by moving the clevis on the brake booster input shaft. After full engagement there is minimal movement in the brake pedal, which would be even better if I was running fixed piston callipers on all 4 corners. However, the pedal is still highly proportional; especially when you get used to the feel. You get more braking force the harder you push, the difference is the pedal does not travel much further for any addition in braking power.

I am very much not a fan of the stock brake feel of these cars; even my old impreza had a less mushy brake pedal. Watching videos of my first few track days it is obvious the thing holding me back was braking, and my lack of confidence was thanks to the mushy feeling brake pedal. When you are doing 160kmh 150 meters from a tight corner and you don't have 100% confidence in your brakes it definitely makes you drive slower! This was with braided lines, good pads and good fluid.

The confidence of a very firm brake pedal is something I really like, but it does take more concentration under lighter braking situations to not over brake. The pedal position does not communicate the level of braking power, rather you have to monitor the force you are applying to be able to successfully modulate the braking power.

Friends that have driven the car do tend to struggle at first to not over brake, but do seem to get the hang of it pretty quickly. I do agree that it is objectively fatiguing to have to concentrate more on your braking while daily driving- I wouldn't bother doing this to a daily driver.

At the end of the day it is a preference thing- I do prefer a pedal that doesn't feel like it is going to fall through the floor! I'm 100% sure that you could be just a fast or faster with the stock master cylinder. Mine needed replacing anyway, so I figured it would be a good chance to experience something that I had thought for a while would be a improvement to me!

bigBADbenny wrote: Keen to try it out when we’re back, hopefully sooooon! :P

With my car at the km where everything is going to be replaced eventually, it’s an upgrade I might just consider, especially being non VSC…


I would be interested to see what you think of it! I would definitely not describe the pedal feel as 'on-off'; I have driven cars that are like that and this setup definitely isn't that. As a non-vsc car it is a really easy thing to do!
Last edited by JezzaH6 on Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Member Profile- 2007 3.0r-b sedan 65Z 6MT

Postby JezzaH6 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:40 pm

Yowie wrote:Great write-up.

Also, do you ever run out of cordless drills?


Cheers :D

One can never have enough cordless drills! It's great- even if I have no charged batteries for one there is always another! Lithium power for the win.
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