Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Sedan

[Yowie]

The book's "fill oil a bit lower" advice comes up against the accepted wisdom for Subarus of "fill the sump a bit higher".

Your baffled sump upgrade will dodge that conundrum.

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The heat sink issue makes me think of my two woks and electric stove at home. On full power the largest electric "burner" will get the thin-metal medium sized wok nice and hot for cooking, but my large thick-metal wok just doesn't get hot enough for cooking at the sort of pace I need. Even heating it with a butane stove outside is a struggle. The big wok doesn't get used anymore.

Similar thing - I recall a youtube video where some Yank ran a bunch of magazines through a thin barrel rifle and then the same test with an equivalent rifle with a heavy barrel. The light barrel got super hot very fast, whereas the heavy barrel took longer and had a lower max temp.

I predict we'll see the same thing with your greater oil volume, but I'm keen to hear the on-track results.

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Cheers for the kind words. I really appreciate how you go out and actually do all this cool track stuff and report back good and bad results.

I just tinker with a road car and read about stuff, although more track days will come now that covid pay-cuts are finished.

[Turbo Lag]

So the new oiling system is in! I did not end up doing the job myself, and I'm glad I chose that option. The shop that carried it out mentioned it was an absolute PITA and very dirty job, and there's no way I would've been able to tackle it without more resources.



Whilst hypothesizing is good, in practice is better.

Oil temps and pressures do not appear to have changed, the car does seem to run maybe 5c lower than normal during typical street driving but it is too hard to measure. What has changed, is the increase in time taken to get oil up to temperature, from cold (as expected, the oil is basically a larger heatsink). Cooling from high to normal temps still takes a similar amount of time (I suspect due to the increase in surface area/cooling fins offsetting the increase in volume), and cooling time from operating to ambient is longer (which makes sense considering the volume is greater). Considering I do quite a few short trips where the engine does not get up to operating temp, this is a negative for daily driving. Thankfully, this is why I have another car.

After going for a relatively hard drive on a warm day, high oil temps still posed an issue. Whilst it may have slightly alleviated them, it is definitely not enough on its own to act as an oil cooler.

The real benefits from this appear to be the reduction in potential oil starvation, not temperatures. Therefore, for the time being I would recommend introducing baffling but not changing the sump to a larger unit unless a baffle with the stock sump is not possible. I also don't see much purpose in changing the pickup unless it can aid for oil starvation issues.

Another potential issue is that the sump hangs relatively lower compared to the standard setup. It is still highly unlikely the sump will be impacted, but it is definitely something to note. It will definitely pose an issue to a very low car.

Keep in mind I was running this with no undertray, meaning there would be some airflow directly impacting the sump. With the undertray on, the sump is almost entirely covered. I have yet to see if there's any difference with/without it.

Overall for a street driven car, it is not a modification I'd bother with. A baffle with the stock oiling system will probably be enough. Not to mention oil changes now cost $$$ almost 30% more.

Track day is 2 weeks away and I'm curious how it will perform there. I now suspect there will be little to no difference in terms of temps, but it is a preventative item.

[Yowie]

Interesting initial observations. A further complicating factor may be that the radiator works more efficiently with the undertray on. How close does the undertray sit to the bottom of the sump? if close, how practical is a sump-shaped cutout in the bottom of the under tray for sump cooling, but otherwise preserving most of the undertray advantages. Perhaps grab a spare one from the wreckers to mutilate

I'm keen to see the next track day notes. Ironically, you'll never know if "not ever having an oil starvation related bearing failure" was because of the aftermarket sump or not. Still, one fewer thing to worry about on high-G corners.

Can the oil change cost be offset with a 30% longer change interval? Perhaps "yes" for a street driven car, but more complicated if you change after track days.

Does your oil pickup now collect from a lower point than stock? If so, you could get away with running the same volume of oil as stock, but having a useless dipstick (or replacing your dipstick with a longer one). The anti-surge benefits might be the practically same as with a higher fill level.

[Turbo Lag]

Interesting initial observations. A further complicating factor may be that the radiator works more efficiently with the undertray on. How close does the undertray sit to the bottom of the sump? if close, how practical is a sump-shaped cutout in the bottom of the under tray for sump cooling, but otherwise preserving most of the undertray advantages. Perhaps grab a spare one from the wreckers to mutilate

Ah I never thought of that. The undertray is so close that it is actually touching, almost wrapping itself over the sump due to the increased surface area. A sump shaped cut out is definitely going to be on the cards *if* I can find an undertray. Surprisingly hard to come across to fit these as everything at the wreckers tend to be non turbo or destroyed!

I'm keen to see the next track day notes. Ironically, you'll never know if "not ever having an oil starvation related bearing failure" was because of the aftermarket sump or not. Still, one fewer thing to worry about on high-G corners.

Not wrong at all. This could be simply due to weather + placebo + fresh oil change but it does feel like the engine is more rev-happy, and has a tiny bit less hesitation upon initial full throttle. But doubt these changes would affect any of that. It's great peace of mind though which is what I was mostly after.

Can the oil change cost be offset with a 30% longer change interval? Perhaps "yes" for a street driven car, but more complicated if you change after track days.

Does your oil pickup now collect from a lower point than stock? If so, you could get away with running the same volume of oil as stock, but having a useless dipstick (or replacing your dipstick with a longer one). The anti-surge benefits might be the practically same as with a higher fill level.

I've decided not to change after track days after the oil analysis. There's seemingly no need to, and as you said with the increased oil capacity, this technically is less of an issue. It tends to get changed out every so often due to other reasons anyway.

The pickup does appear to be at least the same or lower than the stock point, so yes you're probably not wrong, you can get away with a lower oil volume. The only issue is if the dipstick is dry, you can't tell if what's in the sump is being used.... so might be wise to at least keep a drop on the dipstick as an indicator instead. Definitely something I'll look into over time upon next oil change. I think keeping the sump nice and full is wise for track however.

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Caught up with jdmsubielover and JezzaH6 last week for a little drive. Here are some pics

[spike2135]

Nice pics

Where did you go? Looks like Lake Mt.

[Turbo Lag]

Nice pics

Where did you go? Looks like Lake Mt.

Cheers.

That's certainly it, only place relatively close by we could be bothered doing on a whim.

[spike2135]

Nice pics

Where did you go? Looks like Lake Mt.

Cheers.

That's certainly it, only place relatively close by we could be bothered doing on a whim.

ha Good choice! defiantly worth bothering about.

The Lake Mt. up hill and down hill is pretty a pretty awesome run. you can push hard without getting into too much trouble in the warmer months when it's not covered in ice or snow The good thing about it is the difficulty level is relatively consistent, there's only 2 corners when going up and 2 different one's when going down the mountain that require heightened attention.

Shame that speed limit changed through the Black Spur a few years back, makes it slow going, especially with police... I actually saw them hiding in the bushes with a speed gun and communicating with a patrol car at the other end to catch "offenders"...

There are quite a few great roads (short and long) which can be accessed from Healsville that are worth driving/riding

Everything from the shorter (20min for one 'lap') but challenging Toolangi-Chum Creek circuit, both clockwise and anti-clockwise (there's a back road at the bottom that joins them together without going through the town. you can just go around and around till you run out of fuel )

Or the medium length but amazingly fun run through the Reefton Spur
Or the much longer trip with crazy views along the ridge of the mountains to Moe
... the list goes on, so many choices.

[JezzaH6]

Nice pics

Where did you go? Looks like Lake Mt.

Cheers.

That's certainly it, only place relatively close by we could be bothered doing on a whim.

ha Good choice! defiantly worth bothering about.

The Lake Mt. up hill and down hill is pretty a pretty awesome run. you can push hard without getting into too much trouble in the warmer months when it's not covered in ice or snow The good thing about it is the difficulty level is relatively consistent, there's only 2 corners when going up and 2 different one's when going down the mountain that require heightened attention.

Shame that speed limit changed through the Black Spur a few years back, makes it slow going, especially with police... I actually saw them hiding in the bushes with a speed gun and communicating with a patrol car at the other end to catch "offenders"...

There are quite a few great roads (short and long) which can be accessed from Healsville that are worth driving/riding

Everything from the shorter (20min for one 'lap') but challenging Toolangi-Chum Creek circuit, both clockwise and anti-clockwise (there's a back road at the bottom that joins them together without going through the town. you can just go around and around till you run out of fuel )

Or the medium length but amazingly fun run through the Reefton Spur
Or the much longer trip with crazy views along the ridge of the mountains to Moe
... the list goes on, so many choices.

It is a really nice drive through all those places! Reefton Spur is one of my favourites in Vic, but Healsville-Kinglake Road is really not bad too. Which is the route from there to Moe- I'm sure I've done it before but can't recall

Just spend a few days blasting through the Great Alpine Road- by far the best driving roads in Vic are in that area. Just a shame they are so far away it makes last minute decisions to do it so much harder!



Totally worth the effort to get out that way though especially as by the sounds of it you definitely enjoy a blast through some really nice roads

[Turbo Lag]

ha Good choice! defiantly worth bothering about.

The Lake Mt. up hill and down hill is pretty a pretty awesome run. you can push hard without getting into too much trouble in the warmer months when it's not covered in ice or snow The good thing about it is the difficulty level is relatively consistent, there's only 2 corners when going up and 2 different one's when going down the mountain that require heightened attention.

Shame that speed limit changed through the Black Spur a few years back, makes it slow going, especially with police... I actually saw them hiding in the bushes with a speed gun and communicating with a patrol car at the other end to catch "offenders"...

There are quite a few great roads (short and long) which can be accessed from Healsville that are worth driving/riding

Everything from the shorter (20min for one 'lap') but challenging Toolangi-Chum Creek circuit, both clockwise and anti-clockwise (there's a back road at the bottom that joins them together without going through the town. you can just go around and around till you run out of fuel )

Or the medium length but amazingly fun run through the Reefton Spur
Or the much longer trip with crazy views along the ridge of the mountains to Moe
... the list goes on, so many choices.

Black Spur is such a mess now! Way too many tourists and yes you're spot on - cops camping on the side of the road, even in trees I hear. Although it is rather tight there, I'm not a fan of pushing with a relatively big car there with so much traffic and trucks.

Plenty near Healesville too as you mentioned. Toolangi used to be a favourite as well but again super tight. Very nice for a cruise though. I didn't know about the road to connect them back up though, that sounds like a nice detour to keep pace up hehehe.

Reefton is by far my favourite though. It's far enough out of the way, and there's really not much purpose for traffic up there in general. Only catch is that visibility isn't great especially during day. During night though...

Definitely need to join us for a cruise some time. Would be good to catch more from around here.

[spike2135]

It is a really nice drive through all those places! Reefton Spur is one of my favourites in Vic, but Healsville-Kinglake Road is really not bad too. Which is the route from there to Moe- I'm sure I've done it before but can't recall

Just spend a few days blasting through the Great Alpine Road- by far the best driving roads in Vic are in that area. Just a shame they are so far away it makes last minute decisions to do it so much harder!



Totally worth the effort to get out that way though especially as by the sounds of it you definitely enjoy a blast through some really nice roads

Nice pic. Wow the Great Alpine Road! you must be keen to drive that far
I haven't been out that way, but i hear the roads are good will have to check it out sometime I'm not the fastest driver in the world but I do enjoy the spirit of what different roads have to offer

Also, love the wheels!

[spike2135]

Black Spur is such a mess now! Way too many tourists and yes you're spot on - cops camping on the side of the road, even in trees I hear. Although it is rather tight there, I'm not a fan of pushing with a relatively big car there with so much traffic and trucks.

Plenty near Healesville too as you mentioned. Toolangi used to be a favourite as well but again super tight. Very nice for a cruise though. I didn't know about the road to connect them back up though, that sounds like a nice detour to keep pace up hehehe.

Reefton is by far my favourite though. It's far enough out of the way, and there's really not much purpose for traffic up there in general. Only catch is that visibility isn't great especially during day. During night though...

Definitely need to join us for a cruise some time. Would be good to catch more from around here.

Exactly, black spur = tourist road. but it's easy and safe enough at 80 to warm up for the fun stuff

The Toolangi uphill is a real blast. relatively easy, has good pace and is lots of fun. The Toolangi downhill is a different story. It's at least twice as hard with 4 corners to respect... especially the double chicane section... they begin with a tight right hander and a big green concrete water tank in the run-off area don't go in too hot! ...and the surface is a bit sketchy through there too

Chum Creek is the opposite, even though there are 3 very tight corners there's really only 1 tricky one to remember. It's Lots of fun on the way down as the corners start slower and tight but really open up as you make your way down. But on the way up it starts fast and open then gets really tight... you have to get creative in places to keep good pace. As for the connecting road, it is a residential road so i consider it more of a pit lane but it does have some nice elevation changes a a few good corners. Would be happy to show you in person.

The King Late Run is also great fun, but very tight! A good run is starting in Yarrambat going through back roads to Hurstbridge to Nutfield, whittlesea, Pheasant Creek, Kinglake, Panton Hill, Wattle Glen then down to Eltham

I haven't done Reefton for years! And only with a motorbike.

Same as Moe if i remember you can go from Marysville down the C512 -> C513 -> C511 -> into Matlock then keep going onto Walhalla Rd -> take that south all the way to Walhalla, can then to south towards Moe if you want to quit OR from Walhalla go C461 -> north on the C481 then turn east onto C426 towards Tanjil Bren -> Icy Creek -> Piedmontall -> C425 -> Poweltown all the way to Yarra Junction.

Ma8, I'd love to come along for a drive if you're keen to have me tag along. Will have to wait a few days or so, the man, the myth, the legend, Peter from CorgiWerx is doing a mint reco job on my power steering pump. Once i get that back I'm good to go. If you like I can PM once i'm sorted?

[Turbo Lag]

Exactly, black spur = tourist road. but it's easy and safe enough at 80 to warm up for the fun stuff

The Toolangi uphill is a real blast. relatively easy, has good pace and is lots of fun. The Toolangi downhill is a different story. It's at least twice as hard with 4 corners to respect... especially the double chicane section... they begin with a tight right hander and a big green concrete water tank in the run-off area don't go in too hot! ...and the surface is a bit sketchy through there too

Chum Creek is the opposite, even though there are 3 very tight corners there's really only 1 tricky one to remember. It's Lots of fun on the way down as the corners start slower and tight but really open up as you make your way down. But on the way up it starts fast and open then gets really tight... you have to get creative in places to keep good pace. As for the connecting road, it is a residential road so i consider it more of a pit lane but it does have some nice elevation changes a a few good corners. Would be happy to show you in person.

The King Late Run is also great fun, but very tight! A good run is starting in Yarrambat going through back roads to Hurstbridge to Nutfield, whittlesea, Pheasant Creek, Kinglake, Panton Hill, Wattle Glen then down to Eltham

I haven't done Reefton for years! And only with a motorbike.

Same as Moe if i remember you can go from Marysville down the C512 -> C513 -> C511 -> into Matlock then keep going onto Walhalla Rd -> take that south all the way to Walhalla, can then to south towards Moe if you want to quit OR from Walhalla go C461 -> north on the C481 then turn east onto C426 towards Tanjil Bren -> Icy Creek -> Piedmontall -> C425 -> Poweltown all the way to Yarra Junction.

Ma8, I'd love to come along for a drive if you're keen to have me tag along. Will have to wait a few days or so, the man, the myth, the legend, Peter from CorgiWerx is doing a mint reco job on my power steering pump. Once i get that back I'm good to go. If you like I can PM once i'm sorted?

I'd definitely hit up Reefton if you haven't done so in a while, it feels like that's the last place left where you can actually push a bit! The rest are some great roads but often just too tight and traffic isn't great. But you're totally making me reconsider making a visit to all those places again some time.

Are you on Facebook? That's usually where we organise the cruises these days. If not I'll PM you when we next organise Would be awesome to have you there too. That said probably won't happen until all our cars are fixed since practically everything is broken in some way right now.

[Turbo Lag]

So, Winton again. It all went well until it didn't.

In for the final alignment, all went swimmingly. The new wheels are still a little too high offset and touch the strut with too much camber, so this is something that will probably need to be addressed in the future (and no I'm never going to run a spacer).



Another little issue I've been having is the door card getting destroyed as there's little to no body support under cornering. Eventually the door card in my 2.5i developed a distinct bump in it as you brace yourself on it with your elbow during hard left corners. So a ghetto solution was needed to test the theory. Bit of packing material and some painters tape shall do. Super simple and absolutely worked a treat in saving the door card on the day. Now to find a proper solution - I do wonder if there's any door card 'covers' that exist for this purpose. Else, time to find some dark, soft material and wrap that part of the door as it cops the most abuse.



Otherwise, the car was perfectly prepped as much as it could be. The only other small change was the switch to Motul RBF600 fluid, from ATE SuperBlue. On first impressions this helped brake feel enormously - I have never felt a difference in feel with any new v new fluid before either. So this will be going back in soon.

The day started off dark and stormy, leading us to believe it would probably rain most of the day. We were not wrong. This should have been the sign to go home.

By the end of the first 2 sessions, there were multiple cars that had come off the track, and even a crash/roll over (thankfully everyone was OK). The track was damp and light rain continued throughout the day. As more people started to come off and also crash, the track only got dirtier. I've never seen such a chaotic track day with so many cars going off, and this many crashes.

This was the best run I had, a 1:41.96 on the relatively damp track with light spitting rain. I was fairly impressed the car could manage this considering the conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3nbTk6WFY

And here's the content you're here for; what I've learned and observed.

Lets kick off with the drivetrain changes, being the sump and IC spray.

There were no observable differences in temperatures or performance with the upgraded oiling system. Mid way through the day, the undertray was removed, and this appears to help temperatures ever so slightly, however the difference was almost negligable and perhaps just weather related. Thankfully this mod was just insurance, and I think an oil cooler is still on the cards as the sump does not have any major benefits in terms of cooling. The IC spray worked amazingly well but I have little data to back this up - the only way this was tested is checking how the IC cold side was to the touch. Every time after entering the pits, the IC cold side remained almost at ambient temp (:shock:). Additionally, the car was not sluggish or sapping power like normal, however note that the weather was colder than previous days. The only catch is it uses a huge amount of water - so keep plenty available at your garage to fill up each time. This appears to be very effective and cheap to do - I would recommend doing it if possible.

Next, the brakes.

I was expecting huge improvements in braking performance, and was unfortunately let down greatly. This does not mean the performance of the brakes themselves were entirely bad, but ultimately I was not able to match what the Brembos could do with the old setup. Whilst the new Neotech pads + RBF600 felt amazing on street, they did not hold up at all on track. After just 2 sessions the pads were toast and completely cracked. Note that the pics were taken after rubbing them on the floor to try and remove as much cracking as possible... These pads should be used on street only, where they held up great.



Good thing I brought along the other set of pads to test. And this is where the trouble begins. Upon test fitting the unknown, 'hybrid' street/track pads, it turns out they don't fit. This is due to their taller shape hitting the caliper adapter bracket. As you can see in the below image, the last pad there was provided and is significantly taller than the other pads. The other 2 pads there are the standard provided pads, which also happen to be the OEM size on the Brembo-equipped Mustang. Regardless, the taller pads do fit on the out-side of the caliper, not on the inside, so they were swapped in and I ran mismatched pads. Their performance was significantly better even with the mismatched pads, however still required a lot of force for the car to slow down. Unfortunately this meant the master cylinder was apparently working over time as the pedal decided to go right to the floor, and not bounce back as it once did. I believe the master cylinder failed at this point as the pedal feel was incredibly spongey but continued to work (just).



In other not so great news, it turns out the pads provided to another member had simply been ground down to size. You can see this in the photo, they're the second to last set there. This was not confidence inspiring at all. So, back to SW to figure out what on earth is going on with these pads. And it's unfortunately time to invest in an angle grinder to cut down pads in the future .

Here, you can see the difference in pads and their shape. I have confirmed with Intima brakes that the bottom size, a DB1845MD8953 is the standard aftermarket brake pad to suit this caliper. Therefore, either the adapter brackets need re-shaping or another supplier of pads will need to be sourced.



Just to top things off, under hard load on the rumble strips, it appears that some of the lower control arm bushings have completely let go. The front wheels were moving back and forth about an inch, and are no longer able to hold any alignment. Just another problem to add to the list, and I doubt the car can be ready in time for the next track day either.

Overall not a brilliant day, but learned a lot as per usual which is what tends to count. Upon every outing it is clear enough to me that the Liberty is not at all a great platform to track with, and it makes me want to buy an 86.

[Yowie]

Great write-up.

Either that's a massive brake pad, or you have child-sized hands

...is clear enough to me that the Liberty is not at all a great platform to track with, and it makes me want to buy an 86.

Either that or an MX5, which is probably available cheaper on account of being around longer.

[bigBADbenny]

Love it! Best content ever, you’re the guinea pig I could never be!
So surely SW brakes are used on track cars, eg 86, wrx etc.
What are they using?

Surely our talented buddies can make a GPS & thermocouple equipped arduino brake dribbler controller, so you can keep your brake temps in check on track?