Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:47 pm

With a bit more catch can depth to play with, I decided to experiment with better filtration of the vapours. More specifically, moving from this arrangement with the steel wool packed against the "clean" return:

Image


...to this arrangement:

Image

Image

...with two baffle plates, more steel wool and an air gap before the bronze micro-filter on the "clean" exit path.

Under the new arrangement, the dirty air is sent to the bottom of the can via the extension hose (made of irrigation hose) then comes up through the lower baffle plate (complete with speed flutes), a lot more steel wool, the upper baffle plate, the air gap then the bronze micro-filter.

Hopefully the air gap makes it harder for condensed fluid droplets to creep into the bronze micro-filter.

The small threaded hole in the roof of the stock Mishimoto "Compact" catch can is M6, which is very convenient in terms of readily available stainless threaded rod.

The second baffle plate is Bunnings-spec 60mm fluted aluminium hacksawed, filed, sanded & drilled to shape. The nuts & washers are stainless.

We'll see if less vapourised fluid escapes the catch can after this alteration.
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:17 pm

Pros & Cons of E85 fuel

Due to popular* demand, The following is a summary of the pros and cons of running E85 fuel in my experience.

[* one forum member asking me via PM]

I've been running E85 since about April 2017. Full-time E85 (not flex fuel) because United petrol stations are fairly local. I own 3x20L jerry cans as a precaution against shortages and to have an option for long trips.


Pros of E85

-20% more power across the rev range. See the two dyno lines pre and post E85 (ignore the dip from the slipping gearbox):-

Image

- Great responsiveness for regular driving on account of the ignition advance and extra torque - even off boost (I have the VF46 small/med turbo). My particular tune is an economy/power Jekyll/Hyde tune, so the car can really lug along at low revs on account of the knock-resistance when I'm not driving "sportingly".

Specifically, you get better cylinder cooling, much better knock-protection (allowing ideal timing) and a longer power stroke (if you have variable exhaust cam timing - tune for exhaust valve closed longer). Chemistry and tuning boffins can probably say more about this.

- clean upper engine (no need for Upper Engine Cleaner);

- cleaner oil between changes;

- arguable environmental differences I won't get into.


Cons of E85

- cost of physical upgrades to run it (bigger injectors, some fuel lines, usually a fuel pump, possibly some other things, flex fuel gear if applicable, labour to fit, cost of tune)

Image

- Even rubber vacuum lines controlling the wastegate are not immune (replace with silicone). If you want a wild adventure, try "no effective boost control because the wastegate vacuum lines have swelled"

Image

- Massive increase in water vapour in the crank case - especially in cool seasons/climates. 2x catch cans and regular emptying becomes essential. The car ceases to be a "nip down to the shops & back" convenient vehicle because you want to get the oil up to temp every time you drive it to boil off the water. Probably more manageable with flex fuel if you save the ethanol for spirited weekends.

Image

[Head breathers catch can contents on the left, crank case catch can on the right. Collected over a longish period. Probably on the previous "foam forming" oil]


- can be fussy with oil selection. "E85 friendly or not" per the packet is not the key factor if you change often enough (I do 5000km intervals - longer than that and the manufacturer's specs on E85 suitability become important). Watching funny yellow foam formation in the crank case is a factor. I switched oil types to stop this. Currently running Penrite "Ten Tenths" 10W40 oil with no issues.

- wear & tear on the drivetrain with all the extra torque. The E85 tune sent my already-slipping auto box into full-on "rebuild time". Accelerated need to replace other drivetrain components.

- rumoured greater wear & tear on cylinders due to reduced lubricity of ethanol (apparently solvable with some fuel conditioners, but then the cost per tank goes up higher).

- rumoured issues with injectors jamming if the car is left sitting too long (flex fuel would address). Mine is daily-driven so no issues.

- fuel conditioner products being very vague on their packet as to what they are claiming to actually do. I don't use them.

- cost of fuel. United gouge Brisbane people about $1.80 a litre at the moment.

- 30%+ greater fuel consumption at minimum. Worse if you hammer the car often (E85 responds well to adding richness). I get about 15.6 litres per 100km for urban commuting.

- bad cold-start in cold climates (depending on tune). Not a south-east Qld problem, although starting takes longer than on petrol, and it's good form to switch to "on" for a few seconds to let the fuel pump pressurise the lines before hitting the starter.

- possibly others I have forgotten.


In summary, the value of E85 (or upgrading to flex fuel) will depend on your circumstances and what you're prepared to deal with. Thanks for reading.
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby bigBADbenny » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:17 pm

You forgot green feel good credentials :good:

The big dip on the red plot is the auto slipping?

The power graph for 98 was untuned?
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:08 pm

You forgot green feel good credentials :good:


True, but I suspect the actual environmental differences are arguable if you get into it. Eg emissions is a "less of these nasties, more of these other nasties" type thing for ethanol. Probably a similar deal when you compare carbon emissions from refining oil versus the agricultural & distilling process to get ethanol.

Arguing the green credentials of my thirsty Subaru is not the hill I want to die on. :P


The big dip on the red plot is the auto slipping?


Correct. The gearbox rebuild occurred shortly after the E85 tune. I don't have a fresh dyno graph post-rebuild and post Kido touch-up tune.

The "20% more" generalisation for turbo cars switching to E85 seems to be broadly supported on other dyno graphs I have seen, even if this "slippy slush-box" graph shouldn't be taken as gospel.


The power graph for 98 was untuned?


The blue 98 dyno line was the previous tune (on 98) on the same dyno with the same turbo (VF46) and same tuner (Coyote).

Disregard the difference at the extreme left-hand edge too. Probably a symptom of auto gearbox slip again, or the way the ramp-up was done, or something. It is definitely not less powerful at low revs.


Thanks for reading and the interesting questions.
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:23 am

Ah of course, untuned vf46 is more like 120wkw...

What were the supporting mods at dyno time and did they change between fuel setups?
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Turbo Lag » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:36 pm

What an excellent and informative post, this is the type of content I'm here for. :good:

May I ask a question about the overall value proposition going E85? Whilst yes it will depend on each situation as you pointed out, what other mods can be done for similar investment that will have relatively similar gains (assuming you do E85 for the extra torque across the board, not for cooling/cleaning benefits etc.).

Have you also done any calculations to figure out your ongoing cost/KM compared to when you were on 98? Was there also a reason you chose not to go for flex other than the good availability of E85 to your area?

Looks like you definitely want a catch can set up for this too wow. :shock:
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:44 pm

Ah of course, untuned vf46 is more like 120wkw...

What were the supporting mods at dyno time and did they change between fuel setups?



From memory, not much (or "not anything") changed between pre and post E85 (other than fueling changes).

For the original 147kw VF46 petrol tune, it would have had (relevantly):-

XForce dump pipe with catalytic converter
Custom mild steel mid pipe (2x louvered 2.5" resonators) and 2x 2.5" mild steel tri-flow mufflers with stainless tips (quiet exhaust with subtle boxer rumble).
VF46 (ported on inlet and far side of wastegate exit for efficiency)
GRIMMSPEED 3 Port boost controller
PERRIN Silicone Inlet Pipe
Kobe Motorsport Silicone MAF pipe (trimmed to fit between standard airbox and Perrin turbo pipe)
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 pm

(1) What an excellent and informative post, this is the type of content I'm here for. :good:

(2) May I ask a question about the overall value proposition going E85? Whilst yes it will depend on each situation as you pointed out, what other mods can be done for similar investment that will have relatively similar gains (assuming you do E85 for the extra torque across the board, not for cooling/cleaning benefits etc.).

(3) Have you also done any calculations to figure out your ongoing cost/KM compared to when you were on 98?

(4) Was there also a reason you chose not to go for flex other than the good availability of E85 to your area?

(5) Looks like you definitely want a catch can set up for this too wow. :shock:



(1) Cheers very much. Likewise I'm a big fan of your pics, mods and track-day reporting.


(2) From what I've seen (not done) a larger turbo will give you improvements (more or less than 20%) from the point in the rev range where the boost threshold kicks-in. Also larger-turbo benefits in terms of more free-flowing exhaust through the larger exhaust housing and better fuel economy at lower-revs driving. The down-side of a larger turbo seems to be reduced low-end response. I really like low-end response on a road car. If/when my VF46 blows up I'll probably upgrade to a larger turbo just for the learning adventure of that, but I'm in no rush to change the turbo on what is currently a really fun & responsive road car.


(3) No calculations. I don't want to face the grim reality of how much of my weekly pay goes to United.


(4) Mainly cost & complexity. On my understanding I need to delete the TGV system to make room in the stock ECU inputs for a flex fuel setup. I didn't/don't have the budget to do TVG deletes AND the flex fuel sensor AND more tuning time. The unexpected gearbox rebuild (post E85 tune) was a sobering enough look at what money I was throwing at this car.

I also have the sense that driving on 98 is a bit sad when you're used to E85 responsiveness, so when would I put 98 in it realistically? We have my wife's car for nipping to the shops and longer family trips.

Probably a different story for someone with less access to E85 and/or more of a weekend track habit, weekday commuting habit OR someone with a weekend-only car who wants to "pickle" the fuel system with 98 when the car is going to be off the road for a while.


(5) King oath. That's also why I throw my toys out of the cot when I see someone on E85 hooking up a "drain back to sump" catch can. You know it's 95% liquid water you're sending back into your sump right?!?
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Turbo Lag » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:13 pm

Yowie wrote:
(1) What an excellent and informative post, this is the type of content I'm here for. :good:

(2) May I ask a question about the overall value proposition going E85? Whilst yes it will depend on each situation as you pointed out, what other mods can be done for similar investment that will have relatively similar gains (assuming you do E85 for the extra torque across the board, not for cooling/cleaning benefits etc.).

(3) Have you also done any calculations to figure out your ongoing cost/KM compared to when you were on 98?

(4) Was there also a reason you chose not to go for flex other than the good availability of E85 to your area?

(5) Looks like you definitely want a catch can set up for this too wow. :shock:



(1) Cheers very much. Likewise I'm a big fan of your pics, mods and track-day reporting.


(2) From what I've seen (not done) a larger turbo will give you improvements (more or less than 20%) from the point in the rev range where the boost threshold kicks-in. Also larger-turbo benefits in terms of more free-flowing exhaust through the larger exhaust housing and better fuel economy at lower-revs driving. The down-side of a larger turbo seems to be reduced low-end response. I really like low-end response on a road car. If/when my VF46 blows up I'll probably upgrade to a larger turbo just for the learning adventure of that, but I'm in no rush to change the turbo on what is currently a really fun & responsive road car.


(3) No calculations. I don't want to face the grim reality of how much of my weekly pay goes to United.


(4) Mainly cost & complexity. On my understanding I need to delete the TGV system to make room in the stock ECU inputs for a flex fuel setup. I didn't/don't have the budget to do TVG deletes AND the flex fuel sensor AND more tuning time. The unexpected gearbox rebuild (post E85 tune) was a sobering enough look at what money I was throwing at this car.

I also have the sense that driving on 98 is a bit sad when you're used to E85 responsiveness, so when would I put 98 in it realistically? We have my wife's car for nipping to the shops and longer family trips.

Probably a different story for someone with less access to E85 and/or more of a weekend track habit, weekday commuting habit OR someone with a weekend-only car who wants to "pickle" the fuel system with 98 when the car is going to be off the road for a while.


(5) King oath. That's also why I throw my toys out of the cot when I see someone on E85 hooking up a "drain back to sump" catch can. You know it's 95% liquid water you're sending back into your sump right?!?


2. I suppose one of the benefits of E85 then is the torque gain across the rev range, as opposed to a different turbo where there may be compromise (not to mention all the other supporting mods that may be necessary). Completely agree on the smaller turbo thing - I really like the usability of the stock VF46 and couldn't see myself going for an aftermarket solution unless it posed similar usability.

4. I see - so essentially comes down to cost! I know a few others who have gone down the flex route and have almost exclusively used E85 since - but personally I don't understand it from a value point of view, but I guess that's besides the point. I would love it at track though!

5. Yep certainly don't understand those and they seem relatively common too. After seeing your images regardless of E85 it seems like the traditional catch can is the way to go. :good:
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby nvmylh » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:22 pm

Any updates on how the catch can is going with the steel wool mod?
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:18 pm

Any updates on how the catch can is going with the steel wool mod?


I'm yet to pull the crank catch can apart again after the latest mod (probably overdue), but the clear vinyl hose coming off the "clean" side of the catch can still has some condensation and funk in it.

As such, I suspect the filtration is "much better" but still a fair way from 100%.

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?


How many catch-cans must a man put in series
Before you call the output clean?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' liquid into my intercooler
The answer is blowin' liquid into my intercooler
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:57 am

People who like seeing pictures of disgusting slime & funk are in luck with this one.

Due to overwhelming demand (thanks nvmylh), here is a proper update on the "modified interior" catch can that runs off the crank breather. Bear in mind that this car is running on E85, so the amount of water and "butter" seen here is not at all reflective of a typical petrol-fueled engine.

Firstly, the 13mmID hose running from the crank breather to the catch can was free-flowing, but had a residue of butter on the walls, shown dripping out with gravity in the photo below. The "clean side" exit hose from the catch can was wet with yellow water vapour, but not "butter".

Image


The bottom section of the catch can had accumulated butter. Helpfully, the drain hole was clear, meaning that yellow water and some butter chunks would drain out effectively as part of my weekly/fortnightly catch can draining regimen. The inability of some butter to drain out means that the catch cans are not maintenance-free.

Image


The next two pictures show how the modified internals are performing. In short, they work better than before. More specifically, the butter is being collected under the lower baffle plate and in the lower third of the steel wool pack. Not all water vapour is condensed out of the mixture unfortunately.

Image

Image


The top section of the catch can (above the top baffle plate) is wet with yellow condensation, but free of butter. Ideally all water vapour would be filtered out, but I suspect the law of diminishing returns would apply in terms of how much filtering would be needed (eg multiple catch cans in series) on both breather loops to try to achieve this.

Image

---

Not shown is the valve cover breathers catch can. This is a Kap Industries prototype (out of production) and not capable of disassembly. From what I can tell it collected similar butter and required similar maintenance. No pictures shown because the reader is unlikely to be able to replicate the same setup and no new knowledge is really gained by looking at a similar issue on that half of the two catch can system.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:16 pm

Image

Hard to believe I got this genuine STI intercooler block-off plate for only $450USD.

(joke - it just helps for cleaning out the intercooler with fluids to be able to block the blowoff valve hole. Usually I'll run hot water & detergent then a bit of ethanol in order to remove the oil residue.)
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby bigBADbenny » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:13 pm

Hey instant brain fart calling...

Why not wrap your cans in a copper coil and insulation, tee off coolant loop at throttle body or turbo coolant line, and cook off that remaining water vapour?

The trick is to find some copper tubing eg OD fits the ID of the respective coolant lines, work out the length required to wrap each can, fill copper tube with water, cap the ends and then freeze it before bending it to shape on a slightly smaller diameter mandrel, eg a length of pipe.

Then disassemble cans, install heating pipe and then insulate it.

This would probably be more practical with drain hoses and petcocks on your cans.

Almost as easy as putting a catch can on your bov return :P
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Re: Member Profile - Yowie's SH Forester XT

Postby Yowie » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:30 pm

Boiling off more water vapour in the catch cans means that even more water vapour will condense in the intercooler (in positive manifold pressure conditions).

If anything, a cooling coil would be more useful (albeit more technically complex) than a heating coil because I want to catch fluid and drain it off, rather than have it go into the cylinders (pre-turbo or via PCV).

There is probably a case to be made for some setups to keep the catch can gas hot. I prefer to condense/catch as much liquid as I can however.

Agreed however that useful things could easily be done with coolant run from the throttle body coolant loop. For example I've used a bypass loop (formerly throttle body loop) as a pickup point for a coolant temp sensor - as shown on page 1 about half way down.
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