Stage 4 Mods – Engine Rebuild – With Dyno..

[AdamW]

Very nice looking curve there Adam.

Do you have any idea what the combustion temps are?

No, I can probably find out off the engine builder or tuner though..

Not that I fully understand "tractive effort" but I'm pretty sure you don't just divide by 10 to get torque figures.

Can anyone here actually do the physics and the maths to get 7000N tractive effort to torque?

Impressive power regardless

This was the approx number of Nm’s my tuner told me it was producing.

I did a bit of research and found the following (and offcourse I found in on the internet so it must be true…).. All at the wheels.. To find out torque at the fly wheel you pretty much need to put it on an engine dyno..

“As far as Dyno Roller Torque is concerned, You get this figure by multiplying the Tractive effort by 0.1085, which is the conversion from Newton’s (tractive effort, or Motive Force) to Newton Meters on a Roller of a Diameter of 217mm, which probably would of been the diameter for the dyno you were tested on.”

“For those who want to convert Tractive Effort (N) from a dyno chart to Torque (Nm or ft-lbs) follow the basic formula if either of the following DynoDynamics (DD450 or DD650) dynos were used in attaining the figures...
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .1085 on a DD450 and
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .135 on a DD650 and you will get the Nm conversion,”

[Ben]

Nice mods might see you around the gc somewhere

[Spec B Wgn]

nice car and mods and power delivery

congrats... im a fan of ecutek in the hands of a good tuner..

glad your happy..

Q

[smythie]

I did a bit of research and found the following (and offcourse I found in on the internet so it must be true…).. All at the wheels.. To find out torque at the fly wheel you pretty much need to put it on an engine dyno..

“As far as Dyno Roller Torque is concerned, You get this figure by multiplying the Tractive effort by 0.1085, which is the conversion from Newton’s (tractive effort, or Motive Force) to Newton Meters on a Roller of a Diameter of 217mm, which probably would of been the diameter for the dyno you were tested on.”

“For those who want to convert Tractive Effort (N) from a dyno chart to Torque (Nm or ft-lbs) follow the basic formula if either of the following DynoDynamics (DD450 or DD650) dynos were used in attaining the figures...
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .1085 on a DD450 and
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .135 on a DD650 and you will get the Nm conversion,”

That is torque about the axle of the dyno roller which is NOT what you are looking for. You need to be looking at the radius (half the diameter) of the tyre of the car if you really want torque at the wheels (which is yet another figure that does not have any relation to the numbers you see on spec sheets).

The Tractive Effort numbers are still the most relevant figures as it is that force that propels the car forwards.

[GTB Liberty]

Very nice looking curve there Adam.

Do you have any idea what the combustion temps are?

No, I can probably find out off the engine builder or tuner though..

Not that I fully understand "tractive effort" but I'm pretty sure you don't just divide by 10 to get torque figures.

Can anyone here actually do the physics and the maths to get 7000N tractive effort to torque?

Impressive power regardless

This was the approx number of Nm’s my tuner told me it was producing.

I did a bit of research and found the following (and offcourse I found in on the internet so it must be true…).. All at the wheels.. To find out torque at the fly wheel you pretty much need to put it on an engine dyno..

“As far as Dyno Roller Torque is concerned, You get this figure by multiplying the Tractive effort by 0.1085, which is the conversion from Newton’s (tractive effort, or Motive Force) to Newton Meters on a Roller of a Diameter of 217mm, which probably would of been the diameter for the dyno you were tested on.”

“For those who want to convert Tractive Effort (N) from a dyno chart to Torque (Nm or ft-lbs) follow the basic formula if either of the following DynoDynamics (DD450 or DD650) dynos were used in attaining the figures...
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .1085 on a DD450 and
Mulitply the Tractive Effort by .135 on a DD650 and you will get the Nm conversion,”

To the best of my knowledge you cannot just apply a "ratio" to tractive force to get a torque figure.

The formulae I have seen is T(Nm) = P(kW) x 9543 ÷ RPM and another is Power[Kw] = ( Torque [Nm] x RPM ) / 9549
being essentially the same formulae excepting they use a different constant at 9549 to 9543.

As such, using the figures at 4000 rpm and say 200 Kw (bit hard to tell on the graph) would be T=200*9543/4000= 477.15 Nm at 4000 RPM. 477 is a long way away from 700 Nm and probably much more accurate than the "tuner's" 700 Nm .

[smythie]

<pedant>Torque is actually ForcexMoment-arm-length

Tractive Effort is Force. it's measured in Newtons.

That 0.1085 is in metres and is half of the 217mm diameter of the dyno roller. That is the length of the moment arm to calculate torque about the roller axle</pedant>

[GTB Liberty]

<pedant>Torque is actually ForcexMoment-arm-length

Tractive Effort is Force. it's measured in Newtons.

That 0.1085 is in metres and is half of the 217mm diameter of the dyno roller. That is the length of the moment arm to calculate torque about the roller axle</pedant>

Smythie, you obviously have a much better grasp of physics then I do and I'm am certainly not claiming any expertise or specific knowledge in this subject . . . so . . . could you put that into English

Or do you have a better / more accurate method of working out the torque figure from the tractive effort measurement?

[senator]

<pedant>Torque is actually ForcexMoment-arm-length

Tractive Effort is Force. it's measured in Newtons.

That 0.1085 is in metres and is half of the 217mm diameter of the dyno roller. That is the length of the moment arm to calculate torque about the roller axle</pedant>

Smythie, you obviously have a much better grasp of physics then I do and I'm am certainly not claiming any expertise or specific knowledge in this subject . . . so . . . could you put that into English

Or do you have a better / more accurate method of working out the torque figure from the tractive effort measurement?

don't worry mate he has just taken whoring to an entirely different level.......

[smythie]

Screw you hippy

GTB_Lib

I can give an estimate based on the ratio between the stock power figure and the paper spec.

Paper
194kw (flywheel)
350Nm

Stock dyno run
130kw atw

Ratio between atw and flywheel
0.67

Stage 4 dyno run
210kw atw (at peak tractive effort)
4200rpm (at peak tractive effort)

estimated flywheel power
210/0.67=313kw
estimated flywheel torque
313*1000/(4200*2*pi/60)=712.5Nm

All of that is based on the guesstimated ratio between on paper flywheel power and measured power at the wheels on a dyno and the assumption that the dyno would produce completely consistent results on any day in any conditions

FWIW, those 9549 and 9543 figures are a simplification of the 1000/(2*pi/60), the difference coming from using different roundings for Pi

[AdamW]

The multiplier of 0.1085 makes sense for torque at the roller (0.1085 being radius).. And he didn’t specify where the torque was actually related too, I guess from a tuners point of view, the value of torque at the roller is a consistent figure for them to measure against other cars no matter what car is on the dyno (same as the Tractive Effort) … So it’s a good comparison and the only torque figure they can actually quote correctly.. Any other figure would have to take into consideration too many other variables specific to the car.. ie tyre diameter, losses of drive train etc etc..

FYI.. Radius of tyre is about 0.32m.. So 7000N x 0.32m = 2240Nm!…. But yeah I agree, most of these numbers are bulls#it.. I need to take it to the track to see how she goes down the quarter mile, and take it around the track to see how she goes up against some other cars/ models.. Either way, I am more than happy with the end result and the performance the new mods deliver..

[GTB Liberty]

The multiplier of 0.1085 makes sense for torque at the roller (0.1085 being radius).. And he didn’t specify where the torque was actually related too, I guess from a tuners point of view, the value of torque at the roller is a consistent figure for them to measure against other cars no matter what car is on the dyno (same as the Tractive Effort) … So it’s a good comparison and the only torque figure they can actually quote correctly.. Any other figure would have to take into consideration too many other variables specific to the car.. ie tyre diameter, losses of drive train etc etc..

FYI.. Radius of tyre is about 0.32m.. So 7000N x 0.32m = 2240Nm!…. But yeah I agree, most of these numbers are bulls#it.. I need to take it to the track to see how she goes down the quarter mile, and take it around the track to see how she goes up against some other cars/ models.. Either way, I am more than happy with the end result and the performance the new mods deliver..

Adam - be assured I mean no disrespect and in the end if you are "more than happy with the end result and the performance the new mods deliver" then that's what REALLY matters.

I just have a desire to understand the whole Kw/Nm/N etc and it's applications as I to am about to venture down the engine mods / tune journey and don't want to get Fd around by someone feeding me BS because of my limited knowledge.

Screw you hippy

GTB_Lib

I can give an estimate based on the ratio between the stock power figure and the paper spec.

Paper
194kw (flywheel)
350Nm

Stock dyno run
130kw atw

Ratio between atw and flywheel
0.67

Stage 4 dyno run
210kw atw (at peak tractive effort)
4200rpm (at peak tractive effort)

estimated flywheel power
210/0.67=313kw
estimated flywheel torque
313*1000/(4200*2*pi/60)=712.5Nm

All of that is based on the guesstimated ratio between on paper flywheel power and measured power at the wheels on a dyno and the assumption that the dyno would produce completely consistent results on any day in any conditions

FWIW, those 9549 and 9543 figures are a simplification of the 1000/(2*pi/60), the difference coming from using different roundings for Pi

Thanks for that Smythie - when it comes to my tuning journey I'll give you a yell to help me with the physics

PS - What have you got against hippies. I've lived in Byron and Fremantle and Broome so ....... LOL

[AdamW]

Adam - be assured I mean no disrespect and in the end if you are "more than happy with the end result and the performance the new mods deliver" then that's what REALLY matters.

I just have a desire to understand the whole Kw/Nm/N etc and it's applications as I to am about to venture down the engine mods / tune journey and don't want to get Fd around by someone feeding me BS because of my limited knowledge.

The only way to compare torque figures accurately (when comparing to the actual published figures from the manufacture for torque at the flywheel) is to do an engine dyno.. Otherwise due to the many variables you would have to come up with a pretty serious equation to incorporate them all.. So pretty much all that is going on here is guess work and speculation.. As Smythie said earlier, "The Tractive Effort numbers are still the most relevant figures as it is that force that propels the car forwards."

[adam]

Screw you hippy

ROFL!!!

[castek]

regardless of what it is, its a bloody beast!!!!

well done.

I am such a fan of boost, compare that figure to my old 5 litre, making 160rwkw and around 400NM at the wheeels, it took a lot of work to get that.

this is a motor half the capacity and shit loads more power.

[jeffas4966]

Hey Adam,
I was looking at your Stage 4 mods. I am also looking at just about identical mods with the same td05 20g turbo.

Can I ask for each stage what boost level you tuned to to get your recorded power figures.

Rgds

Jeff