Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Sedan

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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:32 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:Awesome member profile, 10 years in the making!
Quite possibly a lurking record?

Can you please tell us more about you philosophy as regards cars and driving, including but not limited to having a 5mt 2.5i, tracking it and along the way, lurking till pouncing on what’s generally regarded as the ultimate BP GT or perhaps the most desirable lib ever made: and a nicely stock yet modified example :shock:

As regards your swaybar development process, its intriguing about the front missing mount.
Indeed old school member Kiks recommendation for tracking a lib was to just disconnect the front swaybar and have at it hanging the tail out.

To this end, my advice would be to keep the rsb or go back to stock, get a 3 position fsb, but get it lighter, or same as than the stock fsb.

Imho with quality dampers, with meaningful adjustment, less bar is more :good:


A lurking record simply as I was too broke to do anything meaningful to my car for like 5 years :lol:. Weird story but I've always wanted a white GT pre-fl wagon since I was a kid (what type of weird ass kid was I? :lol:). It was actually a forum member's car back in around 06ish right near my place that I'd see every day. Ever since then it's the car I've wanted, so it only took me like 13 years to achieve it. Funny enough the wagon has been exclusively owned by someone from here since day 1. The sedan was more of a stepping stone but I've really grown to love it too.

My only philosophy is not buying things that you aren't utilising most of its capabilities for. Throwing more money at things is always nice but personally I like to fully understand the car's deficiencies before I pounce on trying to improve what I can. :P And most importantly you have to like your car!

To this end, my advice would be to keep the rsb or go back to stock, get a 3 position fsb, but get it lighter, or same as than the stock fsb.


I semi-agree. IMO factory got the balance of F/R bars spot on. After messing around with it, if the factory bars were exactly the same size but solid, I think it would be spot on. I will likely end up going for a milder front bar too to match. A tiny bit less roll would be much appreciated when matched with stickier tyres as I don't think the factory bars were made for 80tw tyres. :lol:

And for those that don't know, my best lap at Winton so far. Fastest 2.5i by a long shot and beating out many 3.0 and GT. 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84kYvPQ-lkQ
'04 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Safety Pack Sedan 5MT & '08 Subaru Liberty GT-B Tuned by STI Wagon 6MT & '08 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Sedan 4EAT
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby bigBADbenny » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:13 am

Awesome!
Its a great thing that you stepped up and got the most out of your 2.5i and on track to boot.

I fully agree, and transformed our 2.5i with just Koni Sport yellows, Rallitek touring springs and GT brakes.
The best equipment addressing short fallings in the stock or worn out items absolutely transforms the car into something safe and enjoyable to drive.

Some options regarding bars: I could tig adjustable blades to a stock bar, and or drop one off at the heat treatment business where I used to work, where the bar could be normalised in the oven overnight.

Normalisation would soften the bar, meaning you’d want to get some deflection data before and after.

During the best n/a lap attempts, what aspects of car/driver setup and prep made the most difference?
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby marcus.bspec » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:15 am

Great write-up, keen on some of the components you've installed. Curious to see how everything goes on track!
2007 Subaru Liberty GT Spec B | 6MT Wagon | instagram.com/marcus.bspec

2019.06.20 - 146 kw atw
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:54 pm

bigBADbenny wrote:Awesome!
Its a great thing that you stepped up and got the most out of your 2.5i and on track to boot.

I fully agree, and transformed our 2.5i with just Koni Sport yellows, Rallitek touring springs and GT brakes.
The best equipment addressing short fallings in the stock or worn out items absolutely transforms the car into something safe and enjoyable to drive.

Some options regarding bars: I could tig adjustable blades to a stock bar, and or drop one off at the heat treatment business where I used to work, where the bar could be normalised in the oven overnight.

Normalisation would soften the bar, meaning you’d want to get some deflection data before and after.


It seems modifying the stock bar probably wouldn't be cost effective as the custom one didn't really cost any more than any aftermarket alternatives that already exist, which I wasn't expecting. I'd be super curious to see if it can be done at a budget though, as that's really the only differentiation left, especially if doing 2 at a time. It's hard to convince anyone that this is any better though as most tend to like the feel of the larger bars. I really wish the stock bars would fit on the sedan it would be perfect!

bigBADbenny wrote: During the best n/a lap attempts, what aspects of car/driver setup and prep made the most difference?


Honestly there's nothing specific to the car that made a huge difference as there's not much to 'tune' with my setup. The largest gains were had with late(r) braking and flat foot shifting, the latter of which I do not recommend at all. In terms of importance of parts, brakes would be #1 by a long mile. A quality braking setup with pads/fluid makes all the difference, especially when putting additional stress on these components with grippier tyres. The GT/H6 brakes prove to be an excellent upgrade for the lower models as you almost can't out drive them. Even after 10 track sessions with no cool down laps and absolutely hammering them, they held up perfectly well. I do not believe rotors make any difference whatsoever in terms of performance any more unless you're chasing less unsprung (which even then, is almost a negligable in terms of removing mass from the car compared to doing other things first).

The fastest way around the track would be to just not care about the car. :lol:

marcus.bspec wrote:Great write-up, keen on some of the components you've installed. Curious to see how everything goes on track!


Thanks! Keeping a close eye on your build too, great outcomes (and documenting!) on your end so far. 8) Hopefully track days will still remain a thing after lockdown!!
'04 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Safety Pack Sedan 5MT & '08 Subaru Liberty GT-B Tuned by STI Wagon 6MT & '08 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Sedan 4EAT
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:09 am

Track day!

Image

What an interesting day it was. The impending stormy weather was a real worry - Winton was set to experience thunder and torrential rain by mid day.

The morning saw temps of nearly 40c, and intake air temps reaching well over 50c. Not a great start to the day, and it was only due to deteriorate throughout the day.

The first session was an absolute disaster. By the first out lap, oil temps had already hit 143c+ and water 110c+. The worst part was I wasn't even pushing it! The brakes, even with fresh ATE SuperBlue fluid and brand new Intima SR pads, were almost straight to the firewall after 2 laps.

The tyres hit 80c+ internal temperature, which is something I've never seen before. They were bursting at the seams upon returning to the pits at 40+psi, even while starting 'cold' at 30~psi.

The car was extremely sluggish on the straights with the high temps, to a point where it was literally slower than the 2.5i in a straight line.

It was becoming clear that this wasn't the right day to hit the track! Ended up sitting all of the pre-lunch sessions out as it was clearly too risky to push further.

I let the car sit for the next 2 sessions until the last pre-lunch session for the day - as soon as I left the pits, we hit torrential rain. Within 2 laps the session was red flagged. Driving on the AR1s with massive down pour and standing water was incredibly tough. It wasn't any cooler either and the humidity killed visibility too.

You can see the water starting to pool. The optimal line was basically a write off around the entire track.
Image

So, I let the car rest and left for the lunch break.

Thankfully the rain subsided, and the track began to clear up due to the heat. Temps began to drop by around 5c which made an enormous difference. The next few sessions treated the cars a bit better - but I was still struggling to come anywhere near my previous time of 1:44.7 set in the sedan.

I decided to strip the front end of anything unnecessary to assist with cooling, and started to spray down the IC and front end with cold water while in the garage. This seemed to help enormously with cooling down between sessions. Definitely considering investing in an IC sprayer solution as it appeared to make a big difference to cool down. Removing the front grill also seemed to help a lot (surprisingly). Might be time to hit the wreckers to buy a stock grill and chop it up, and put some mesh behind it.

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With a few changes and a generous drop in temps, I was able to push a lot harder in the final session. The brakes were beginning to hold up for more than a single lap, and oil/water temps became a bit more manageable. It was still definitely down on power but wasn't as slow compared to the other sessions.

Ended the day on a high where I set a new PB in the wagon. This was one of two laps where I was actually quicker than my other car. Unfortunately I was on a cracker of a lap on the final run but the session ended. Considering I was comparing with other cars that usually run 1:3x, I was pretty happy with the final result.

2008 Subaru Liberty C S2 1:43.1020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp1M4EX4zxo

In hindsight, this was a very sloppy lap. Compared to my sedan PB lap, this was nowhere near as good. The moist track wasn't helping either, plus I was avoiding curbs like the rona as they were slippery and do destroy your bushings. Plenty to improve on for next time.

I was fairly happy with the handling setup at the moment, along with a fresh alignment (even though I wasn't able to hit the specs I wanted). The custom sway bar setup did their job quite well - however with the AR1s I feel a higher spring rate on the SW would help. There was too much body roll in every dimension, especially pitching forward. That said, it's a nice compromise for the street so I probably won't bother.

Image

Overall the car didn't feel that great. Ultimately the car just feels way too heavy and quite scary under braking as they're a weak point. The engine doesn't feel great when pushed up into the higher RPMs and clearly the turbo doesn't enjoy heat. My sedan feels a lot more at home on track even with significantly less mods. To anyone reading... don't listen to anyone who says you need a GT or 3.0 to track. The 2.5N/A is a lot more comfortable to track and also more enjoyable IMO. I can now see why I was able to keep up with the GT/3.0s in the 2.5i. Will I bother again? Maybe - depends on whether the new brakes arrive in time...

Image
'04 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Safety Pack Sedan 5MT & '08 Subaru Liberty GT-B Tuned by STI Wagon 6MT & '08 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Sedan 4EAT
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Yowie » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:14 pm

Thanks for putting up such a detailed track day write-up (with pics). Full credit too for not just posting "Me and the car were awesome" type stuff that glosses over the practical challenges.

The heat data/comments are really interesting. No wonder the turbocharged Bathurst 12 hour cars start to suffer as the day heats up.

The more I learn about track days the more I'm leaning away from the idea of throwing a 1.7 tonne fast street subaru around a racetrack (as opposed to a light cheap Mazda MX5 or similar).
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:33 pm

Yowie wrote:Thanks for putting up such a detailed track day write-up (with pics). Full credit too for not just posting "Me and the car were awesome" type stuff that glosses over the practical challenges.

The heat data/comments are really interesting. No wonder the turbocharged Bathurst 12 hour cars start to suffer as the day heats up.

The more I learn about track days the more I'm leaning away from the idea of throwing a 1.7 tonne fast street subaru around a racetrack (as opposed to a light cheap Mazda MX5 or similar).


What matters most is what I (and others) learn from this. 8) No point documenting anything otherwise! I've not seen anyone put up too much practical advice and challenges in terms of tracking these things.

It honestly amazes me how well race cars hold up to the heat and all the other factors thrown at them. Hell, even newer cars held up a lot better than these did. Cooling is #1 to keep the car alive, and brakes to actually get the job done.

I would still give it a go if I were you. I've weighed the car at 1680KG with passenger + usual street form. With a cooler day I'm sure it will be a much better experience. But you will still need to do multiple cool down laps after a hot lap, compared to the N/A where you can hammer it all day long. Make sure you're monitoring oil/water temps on a turbo at the bare minimum, it is incredibly easy to hit high temps. If I've learned anything here, it's to appreciate how much better a light car is on track. I wouldn't have this insight if I didn't try it! At very close to 1500KG on the sedan, it feels a lot more at home.

A few small things I picked up along the way is to take a spray bottle with cold water and spray the hell out of the IC when parked. It sounds stupid but it worked to keep the car operating with reasonable temps at least for the first few out laps per session. That, added with a portable fan to put in front of the car at the garage, helps immensely. Honestly considering trying to make some sort of fan system with a duct that flows directly into the front grill.
'04 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Safety Pack Sedan 5MT & '08 Subaru Liberty GT-B Tuned by STI Wagon 6MT & '08 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Sedan 4EAT
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby bigBADbenny » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:14 pm

Gt3 spec 2.5i on the way?
Reckon there’s 200kg or so to strip out of one?

Is that Gen 2 Shockworks with the dampers maxed out?
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:33 am

bigBADbenny wrote:Gt3 spec 2.5i on the way?
Reckon there’s 200kg or so to strip out of one?

Is that Gen 2 Shockworks with the dampers maxed out?


It is rather tempting even though I've mostly retired that car from track, but maybe it will be back again at some point. :lol: The only thing I didn't take out is the front passenger seat which will probably be the only noticeable difference, so probably only a few more KG to take out! The rest of the stuff I've left in is pretty negligable...

Yes that's the Gen "2" (probably?) mid 2019 rev fully maxed out. The damping is fine but IMO needs higher spring rates with the 80TW tyres. I think they were made for 200TW hence the issue.
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:43 pm

Finally got the 245s on, it's definitely pushing it. Had to dial the camber back so it won't hit the strut - would be nice to have more but oh well. Love how it looks...

Image

Image

Image
'04 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Safety Pack Sedan 5MT & '08 Subaru Liberty GT-B Tuned by STI Wagon 6MT & '08 Subaru Liberty 2.5i Sedan 4EAT
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby jdmsubielover » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:11 pm

Love the stance Leone. :good: Looks amazing and heaps of grip.
245/45R18?
Any difference in steering feel due to extra rubber?
07 Gen 4-BL 2.5i -5 spd man
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:26 pm

jdmsubielover wrote:Love the stance Leone. :good: Looks amazing and heaps of grip.
245/45R18?
Any difference in steering feel due to extra rubber?


Haha thanks! I went 245/40/18. A /45/ would just be too big to fit in the guards in general - even the 245 is noticeably larger than 235.

Unfortunately steering feel will only get worse with wider tyres but it's just how it is with these cars. It's definitely not as bad as I expected though. Plus I had to raise it a touch too since it rubbed on the bigger potholes and bumps (especially at the rear). Can't wait to throw my rear toe arms on soon to correct it though.
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby bigBADbenny » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:09 pm

Moar pics!
I’d imagine you’d call this setup: MEATY :good: ?
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Turbo Lag » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:01 pm

Image

Image

:good: The 17s definitely are meatier but these sit perfectly.

I also hooked up a ghetto IC spray using the windscreen sprayer. It's made a pretty big difference to the IC at a touch too - hopefully this will help for temps at track next time. Definitely need to remove it afterwards but it takes all of 10 seconds to rip it out thankfully lol.

Image
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Re: Member Profile - 2008 tbSTI SWP Wagon + 2004 2.5i OBP Se

Postby Yowie » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:40 pm

is it worth jamming a bunnings misting sprinkler fitting in that water hose exit onto the intercooler?
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